Kevin
From: "B&C Eckey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] IS28 ADs (was Reasons NOT to spin for fun)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:12:14 +0930
Today I will break from tradition and stick my beak in fully expecting to be shot down in flames because of my background as SCHLEICHER agent in Australia, NZ and Japan.
The sad track record of the Puchacz is an ever growing list of approx. 40 dead glider pilots with the same number of grieving spouses/mothers. To me it is very difficult to understand why there are still pilots on this list who in all seriousness defend this aircraft and call it a "trainer". In some overseas countries the A/C got the name "Widow maker" GA aircraft with such an appalling loss ratio would get their C of A withdrawn.
Apart from the technical shortcomings there is also the commercial aspect. A well known Australian gliding club purchased a Puchacz only about 6 years ago. Although hardly winch-launched the A/C was taken out of service well before reaching its 3000 hr limit due to an ever growing number of loose rivets. At the time the club dismissed the ASK 21 "because it is too expensive". A Polish 2-seater was purchased instead for half price but with a 3000 hrs service limit. Today - a mere 6 years later - the value of the A/C is down to scrap metal.
For twice the money the club could have got an ASK 21 with 18000 hours, twice as nice to fly, much better performance and handling, no nasty spin habits, aerobatic capabilities and a maintenance record second to none.
Now, you work that out!!!
Bernard Eckey 10 Antigua Grove West Lakes 5021 Adelaide / South Australia Ph. +61 8 8449 2871 Fax +61 8 8242 3698 mobile 0412 981204 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.gliders.net.au
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Catherine Conway Sent: Tuesday, 21 September 2004 9:41 PM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] IS28 ADs (was Reasons NOT to spin for fun)
Polish gliders seem to require correct spin recovery rather than allowing you to get away with just using one control. I wonder if this has something to do with the Puchacz problem.
I met someone in a wheelchair in Germany who was there because of a spin accident.
-Cath
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Parncutt Sent: Tuesday, 21 September 2004 7:53 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] IS28 ADs (was Reasons NOT to spin for fun)
Yes Harry I agree, accidental spinning at low altitude is the real danger and we must never lose focus that the reason for its training is to ensure that pilots can recover quickly in an emergency. I also believe the real emphasis should be the training of recognising and recovering from the incipient stages.
I well remember one most horrific things I have ever seen was watching (from above) a Cirrus entering an accidental spin on joining downwind. he did a full orbit and from my vantage point I was sure he was going to crash, thank god he managed to recover and then in an obviously very shocked and disorientated state proceeded to stretch out his circuit to make it back to the flight line and nearly came to grief doing that!
I personally don't enjoy extended spinning practice, I don't think it serves much purpose, I'd rather be climbing in a thermal than wasting all that height!
I must confess to being rather puzzled by the bad record of the Puchaz in regard to spin accidents especially overseas. As I mentioned before I have found it to be the most docile and predictable in its characteristics of any two seat glider I have ever flown. Perhaps there may lay the problem, a false sense of security causing pilots to experiment with spinning at lower altitudes than they would have in less forgiving aircraft.
John Parncutt VMFG
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Harry Medlicott Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 7:51 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] IS28 ADs (was Reasons NOT to spin for fun)
John,
You are right, spins in an IS 28 can be unpleasant and not willingly practised without a lot of air underneath you. I have not flown a Puchaz but the statistics say it all. If anyone has precise figures, then let us all know but I understand it is about the worst of any current training glider. Spinning accidents don't normally happen at altitude, it is the ones close to the ground that cause the accidents. Training at altitude undertaking a number of turns might be fun but I doubt if it saves many lives. What is needed is plenty of practice at instantly taking the appropriate recovery action when a spin is developing and, yes, preferably when and if the real thing happens, you are flying a docile glider.
Why make life harder than we need to?
Harry Medlicott
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Parncutt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 6:28 PM Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] IS28 ADs (was Reasons NOT to spin for fun)
> Our club some years ago (VMFG) sold our IS28's and bought a Puchaz. Having > gone from instructing on the 28's to the Puchaz, I can tell you the spin > characteristics of the Puchaz are far superior to that of the 28. The 28's > depending on C of G had an alarming (for the pupil and sometimes even > experienced pilots) habit of tucking under in the spin giving the impression > of an almost inverted spin. The Puchacz is far more predictable and docile > and in my view an excellent trainer. > Harry's comment that we should not be importing them makes no sense to me at > all. Of course being an aerotow club we don't do any spinning below 1500 ft > AGL, at a winch operation where you may only get 1200 ft AGL there is far > less safety margin and unless I am mistaken most of the Puchaz spin > accidents have been at winch sites. > > To get to the point, there is no way I would intentionally spin an IS28 at > 1200ft AGL, and were I to be in the position of spinning at that altitude I > would much rather be in a Puchacz! > > Unfortunately the real issue with the Puchacz is its limited service life, > and for that reason our club has spent a lot of time researching > alternatives and have decided on the DG505 > > John Parncutt > VMFG > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kittel, > Stephen W (ETSA) > Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 5:49 PM > To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' > Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] IS28 ADs (was Reasons NOT to spin for fun) > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jason Armistead > > > > There ARE more than 3 ADs for IS28s. You need to be careful > > how you look for > > them ! > > Whoops, should have realised that myself. > > > Some are filed under "IS-28" (rather than "IS28") - another 9 > > in fact, > > including AD 374 "Fatigue Life Limits" which I think is the > > one that explains > > the trade-off between aerobatic flights and lifetime, ... > > Thanks for that heads up on AD374. It may be of interest to some here in SA > with Twin Astirs (not the direct application of the AD but how it came > about). > > Anyway, I note that it is a GFA extension _beyond_ the manufacturers limits. > You basically can't have it if you do more than 8% aerobatics (which I would > have thought was plenty, even for the most spin happy clubs) *OR* 500 non > aerotow launches, which pretty much excludes this extension from being > available to any winch clubs (I reckon 500 launches would be about a year or > so worth even for a small country winch club). So as far as this analysis > goes, it would appear type of launch is far more important than any > aerobatics a club may do. > > Regards > SWK > > ********************************************************************** > This email and any file attachments are confidential and > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom > they are addressed. > If you have received this email in error please tell us immediately > by return email and delete the document. > The information in this email expresses the opinion of the author > and does not necessarily represent the views of ETSA Utilities. > ********************************************************************** > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >
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