….and, after all that work, the Dynamic fall apart and crash landed.
Peter _____ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of tom claffey Sent: Saturday, 2 October 2010 8:41 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Towplanes Or try a 172 with 200-210hp engine conversion. More expensive but 4 seats for utility as private transport.Or simply a 182 or Citabria/Scout. In Szeged we had Dynamic ultralights as well - seemed OK. The Question I asked "why" a motorglider was not really answered, if it MUST be a motorglider then OK, but there are lots of better tug options. Tom --- On Sat, 2/10/10, Jim Staniforth <staniforth...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Jim Staniforth <staniforth...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Towplanes To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> Received: Saturday, 2 October, 2010, 4:12 AM My limited experience, with "Camel" VH-KML, is that it goes well and doesn't hold up the other tugs in the flow of things if you avoid hooking to Concrete Swans, etc. Recently met someone who routinely launches his Duo behind a 150-150 from a grass strip at 800'. Rumours of the restrictive maximum towing weight seem to be just that. Just had a look on Trade-A-Plane. The basic C150/152 is cheap as chips (it should be). In the USA loads of them can be had for less than A$20k. There's one 150-150 listed for A$21k (see below). Add another A$25k or so to zero time as a 160HP (a friend just did this to his 150 Super Cub). Ben implied too much fun to bother converting the 150 to a short-coupled taildragger. Ship to port and by container to Sydney, guessing about A$10 or 12k. Put two Cessnas in there, and they're a little over A$50k landed in Australia but before scrutiny by AQIS, Customs and CASA. C172-180HP are much easier to find, but a little thirstier. A dozen for sale in the USA at A$40 to 60k. Yes, it's difficult to thermal a C150, however four of us did a 500k ridge flight in a C172 running at ~1350RPM. Tricycle gear allows more pilots to fly but is not too good for paddock retrieves. Jim 1964 Cessna 150 3150 1100 Stamford TX $20,000 1964 CESSNA 150 150HP, STOL KIT, AFTT-3150. ETT-1100. Radio GEW, Cessna 300 Nav/Com-VOR, Nav 122, transponder. $20,000. TX/(325) 669-5570. _____ From: stephenk <steph...@internode.on.net> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> Sent: Fri, October 1, 2010 1:16:04 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Towplanes Mike (and any others interested) As I sort of wrote below, the cost of the tailwheel conversion is only a few thousand compared to the overall cost of upgrading a 150/152. Still a few thousand could be worth saving, but it isn't a deal breaker. Had a bit more of a look at lunch time in a few more aviation traders. Looked at 23 in total, the average is a bit lower than with the first look, but still about $45k. There are, of course some cheaper airframes, but not so many as we might think (only 5 under $35k). And these are often late 1960's vintage 150s. Maybe no one is advertising teh really cheap ones. So we could conceivably dig around and do a conversion somewhere between Dave's 70k and my guess of 90k. However, what we would end up with is a very old 150 (albeit with a new engine) . And that isn't much (any?) better than a very old Pawnee (with a new engine). One of the drivers for Richard (and others) thinking about "a new tug" is that one tug at his club is pretty nearly worn out and will cost a significant proportion of a new plane for soon to be due maintenance. Is it worth sinking that much money into something as ancient as a Pawnee? I take the point that over the life of the two aircraft comparison the real costs of the 150 might be less than the Pawnee, but operating costs are also driving the current thoughts to use MGs and ULs. Are there no other options than bodging up 40+ year old aircraft (that's a whole other discussion and could involve Blaniks!)? The other side of the equation though, is that Richard asked the original question because having a MG as a _second_ tug possibly gives his club an aeroplane with greater utility. A tug MG is a tug _and_ a MG, a GA tug (of any sort) is only a tug. Regards SWK On 1/10/2010 1:18 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: > Stephen, > > Dave Donald is at Boonah and they converted one in the last few years. You > don't need the tailwheel conversion and both Boonah and Kingaroy's C150s are > still nosewheel types. > > Performance of the 180HP C150 is impressive. I've watched a launch behind a > 235 Pawnee and the Kingaroy C150 with ballasted 15m gliders with the second > rolling as soon as the first lifted off. It isn't at all certain that the 235 > Pawnee is any better under those circumstances than the C150. > > The O-360 Lycoming used is essentially 2/3 of the O-540 in the Pawnee. Only 4 > cylinders to fuel and overhaul instead of 6 for around the same towing > perfomance. > > Mike > > > At 12:59 PM 1/10/2010, you wrote: > >> I was a bit interested this morning too, so I did a quick hunt around on the >> internet. I think Daves guess is a bit on the low side. >> >> Airframe : going by costs of 150/152 from the latest aviation trader (about >> 12 aircraft) costs range from 30k to 65k but typically fell in the 45-55 >> range for aircraft with about 6000 hrs on the airframe. (the $30k one was a >> real outlier and would be a bit of a clunker I reckon, the 65k one "only" >> had 2000 hrs on the airframe, least used by a long way). >> >> So Airframe : average 48K, best 65k >> >> >> >> Had a look at Lycomings 2010 price list for O-360s (there are 140+ types ! >> not counting IO, AEIO etc) >> >> With exchange, a new O-360 $41k, rebuilt zero hours $29k. BUT up front they >> say they are reluctant to exchange different types, so add 20% to either of >> these prices for a straight out purchase (though you should still be able to >> sell the old engine locally and recoup something). >> >> >> >> Then looked for conversion prices. Found a site called Aeroprices which >> quoted a tailwheel kit as US$2225 and an engine upsize kit as US$5835-7622. >> HOWEVER (and this is the interesting bit) the STC for both these kits was >> owned by "Aircraft Conversion Technologies" who seem to have folded as a >> business in 1999. The STC ownership seems to have then passed to "Del Air" >> who have little in the way of info on the web (only reference by third >> parties). They could be gone too. Who owns the STC? The upshot being the >> prices given must be pre 1999 prices so a conservative 50% inflation since >> then (I would bet closer to 100%) gives: >> >> Tailwheel kit $3300 (which seems neither here nor there in the overall cost >> of the work) >> >> Engine fit kit $9800 >> >> ------------------------- >> >> Finally if we were to buy a 150/152 on the Australian market and upgrade it >> as above (not counting labour!) an "average/cheap" conversion would be about >> $90k and a "top of the line" job would run to about $120k. >> >> >> >> I haven't allowed any cost for labour (and chasing around after who owns the >> STC etc). I expect you would get some change (but not much) out of $10k >> >> After this expenditure you would still have a 30+ year old airframe. >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> SWK >> >> >> >> On Fri 01/10/10 10:06 AM , Dave Donald icans...@y7mail.com sent: >> Why would you want a taildragger 150/152 (even though they exist)? If you >> get a tricycle 150/152 that nearly every GA pilot trained on, they are a >> ready source of tug pilots (when endorsed). And you don't have all of the >> issues of ground handling that goes with a taildragger. >> >> Airframe 20k >> Engine 35k >> Conversion 15K >> = 70k >> >> Pretty rough figures across a couple of years - the engine may be more or >> less depending on condition. Also, most modded 150/152 have a recurring >> problem shaking the rivets out of the tailplane skins/spar, but with proper >> maintenance this risk is mitigated. >> Dave >> >> >> From: Colin Campbell >> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. >> Sent: Fri, 1 October, 2010 10:04:54 AM >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] "Super Motor Falke" and towing >> >> Can anyone supply information on current cost purchase and conversion of C >> 152 to taildragger and 180 hp engine transplant and a LAME who has done it >> before? >> >> Colin C >> >> On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 9:37 AM, Mike Borgelt >> <<mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com>mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com> >> wrote: >> As proved at Kingaroy over the last 20 years. >> >> Mike >> >> >> At 09:41 PM 30/09/2010, you wrote: >> One has to ask the question - why? >> If cost is the answer then a 180HP Cessna 150/152 is the best alternative. >> Tom >> >> --- On Wed, 29/9/10, Richard Skinner >> <<mailto:skinn...@bigpond.net.au>skinn...@bigpond.net.au> wrote: >> >> From: Richard Skinner >> <<mailto:skinn...@bigpond.net.au>skinn...@bigpond.net.au> >> Subject: [Aus-soaring] "Super Motor Falke" and towing >> To: >> <mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >> Received: Wednesday, 29 September, 2010, 4:57 PM >> >> Does anybody out there have any information regarding the launching of >> gliders by Motor Falke, or indeed, any other motor glider that may be used >> to launch? I̢۪m not aware of it in Australia ia but I understand that >> there may be some such happening in Europe? I am aware of Ultra lights >> acting as tugs but I̢۪m speciecifically interested in motor gliders. >> >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> Richard Skinner >> >> >> >> <mailto:skinn...@bigpond.net.au>skinn...@bigpond.net.au >> >> >> >> 08 8431 8249 >> >> 0419 818 024 >> >> >> >> If you want to grow old as a pilot, you've got to know >> when to push it, and when to back off. Chuck Yeager >> _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
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