David,
I would be interested to hear where your data comes from that shows turning crashes are not the most common motor-vehicle/bicycle crash. My data comes from page 19 of this report: http://www.cityofmadison.com/trafficEngineering/documents/Current_CrashReport.pdf I understand that due to the nature of MV4000 reporting requirements, that there may be a significant number of crashes that do not get recorded if the crash does not involve a motor vehicle and result in significant injury to a bicyclist requiring medical attention. =Matt From: David A. Noyce [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 6:11 PM To: Matt Logan Cc: 'Chris Murphy'; 'Larry D. Nelson'; 'Robbie Webber'; 'Bikies' Subject: Re: [Bikies] Enforce Bike Laws? Matt: Appreciate you taking time to read and think about the comments Chris placed on the web site. With more time and text, perhaps we could have gone into greater detail on the unbiased scientifically-supported safety benefits of mode split. Although I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the most common crash scenario and the specific crash you cited, I do agree that turning vehicle conflicts with all vehicle types and pedestrians remains a concern. In fact, I have spent my entire academic career studying left-turn crashes. The flashing yellow arrow permissive left-turn indication used locally and nationally at signalized intersections is one safety improvement resulting from my research. I am well aware of the definition of 'vehicle', and the importance of safely accommodating ALL vehicles and modes within our transportation system. I can assure you that future traffic engineers coming out of our program at UW will holistically understand these important issues. Thanks for your thoughts and best wishes, David On 9/30/2013 4:52 PM, Matt Logan wrote: “How is that separated modes can make things more dangerous, and what would be better to do at intersections?” To be clear, separation at intersections is what I am referring to. Drivers only look where they expect to see other drivers, so separated facilities can make intersections more dangerous by hiding bicyclists from drivers. A good example of the problem is here: http://theactivepursuit.com/new-details-in-death-of-madison-bicyclist/ The best solution to this intersection problem is getting more bicyclists out there so that drivers get more used to interacting with them and anticipating the need to look for them I’m not saying David has any overt intention to prioritize drivers above bicyclists, it is more of a perception of bias in where his solutions come from. What he says about relative speed is certainly true, but my point is that since most bike-car crashes are the result of drivers failing to yield, focusing on relative speed seems like the wrong place to start if you want to fix the largest problem. Lit bike paths are great, and enforcement is good too, as long as it is done with the intention of effectively realizing long-term benefits to safety issues as opposed to being done because drivers complain of fairness issues. Separated facilities are also good at times because they are more likely to attract less experienced bicyclists, even though they can be less safe. From: Chris Murphy [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 12:42 PM To: 'Larry D. Nelson'; Matt Logan Cc: Robbie Webber; Bikies; [email protected] Subject: RE: [Bikies] Enforce Bike Laws? Kind of you to say so, Larry. Thank you. Matt, believe me, I hear you about turning cars. I go through the Wingra Bike Path/Fish Hatchery intersection twice a day and it gets more exciting than I like when a motorist (often turning right) isn't looking out for bike traffic coming up on their right side ... Though I'm a cyclist, I'm not an expert on traffic engineering by any means, however. How is that separated modes can make things more dangerous, and what would be better to do at intersections? I did want to say that it sounds like you are attributing to David a notion that roads are for cars and that cyclists don't belong there. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, but that's not the sense I got from him at all. I think the kinds of solutions he's working on (better-lit bike lanes at night, e.g.) very definitely point to a shared-use mindset. It's true I highlighted his suggestion about greater enforcement on campus in the headline — and I did that because it's the topic I thought the greatest number of people would have a take on and also because I think he's got a point. It really is a free-for-all there at times. Chris M. _____ From: Larry D. Nelson [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 12:22 PM To: Matt Logan Cc: Robbie Webber; Bikies; Chris Murphy; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Bikies] Enforce Bike Laws? I thought I was a pretty good article. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 30, 2013, at 11:27 AM, "Matt Logan" <[email protected]> wrote: When we talk about bicycle safety in terms of interactions with cars, I find it odd that a traffic engineer would neglect to mention that the #1 crash scenario in Madison and the State of Wisconsin is a turning motorist failing to yield to a bicyclist riding through the intersection. The Traffic Engineer quoted in the article instead suggests separating modes – but that doesn’t fix the intersection problem, in fact separation can make safety problems worse. This is why we need to keep turning the screws on the traffic engineers – they are still stuck looking at problems in terms of automobiles. Heck, Noyce can’t even correctly use the word “Vehicle” (which is defined in state law to include bicycles). http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/340.pdf “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except railroad trains. A snowmobile, an all−terrain vehicle, and an electric personal assistive mobility device shall not be considered a vehicle except for purposes made specifically applicable by statute.” http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/education/university/is-it-time-to-start-enforcing-bike-traffic-laws-on/article_17e8ebd5-13e7-5173-86f4-c13dbcf97467.html _______________________________________________ Bikies mailing list [email protected] http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org -- ----------------------------------------------------------- David A. Noyce, Ph.D., P.E. Professor Director, Traffic Operations and Safety (TOPS) Laboratory Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering Department of Industrial and Systems Engineering University of Wisconsin-Madison 1204 Engineering Hall 1415 Engineering Drive Madison, WI 53706 Phone – (608) 265-1882 Fax – (608) 262-5199 Web – www.topslab.wisc.edu
_______________________________________________ Bikies mailing list [email protected] http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
