William Hauda via Bikies <mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
July 8, 2016 at 11:09 AM
Make that 28 mph on Speed Pedelecs. But I'm certain there are
people working on faster speeds. It's human nature.
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William Hauda via Bikies <mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
July 8, 2016 at 11:05 AM
Currently Wisconsin state law prohibits use of E-bikes on bike
ways with the motor engaged. That is Madison's policy also. There is a
question whether the restrictions apply to state trails and the
Nonmotorized Recreation and Transportation Trails Council is currently
exploring options. Two major states have tried to tackle this.
California early this year enacted legislation creating classes of
E-bikes with rules on how each class can be used. In New York, the
effort got sidetracked because of a single legislator who chairs the
transportation committee. The problem we are dealing with in Wisconsin
is the emerging Speed Pedelec technology. These bikes, popular in
Europe, are capable of 38 mph. Our concern is that mixing electric
assisted bikes with all of the other nonmotorized users of the trails
(like walkers, roller bladers, runners and bicyclists) creates a
dangerous mix. How to avoid that is the goal of NRTTC. Enforcement of
speed limits is problematic. Can you tell whether a motor is engaged?
Probably not because electric motors are silent. While DNR does have
some radar certified employees they don't have enough staff to handle
the daily chores, let alone run speed traps. So it's a complex issue
and we on the NRTTC are working on it.
Bill Hauda, bicycling representative, NRTTC
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Chuck Strawser via Bikies <mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
July 8, 2016 at 10:42 AM
Brian and I exhanged emails off-list, and then he agreed that it was
worth sharing that exchange to the list. It's copied below.
chuck
From: Chuck Strawser
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 10:35 AM
To: 'Brian Mink'
Subject: RE: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health
Benefits of an Electric Bike
Brian,
There are also already state rules in place that define "motor
bicycles" as those going less than 20mph, and even those are not
allowed to be used on bike paths *under power* (you can pedal them
unassisted on paths). See state statute below, and also the useful
page from the city's website.
So the trike that passed you at 35mph was already in violation of the
rules, and does not meet the state definition of a "motor bicycle"
(and is therefore not legal on streets, either).
But like every other law, it's meaningless unless it's enforced.
Look at the posted speed limits (for motor vehicles). How many people
are ticketed for driving 40mph on the sections of University Ave that
are signed 25mph?
Since you replied to me only, I won't post this on the list-serv
without asking you. I think it's relevant to the discussion, so you
might consider posting it (and my response) yourself.
State Statute 340.01(30) defines a "motor bicycle":
http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/340.pdf
340.01(30) "Motor bicycle" means any of the following:
(a) A bicycle to which a power unit not an integral part of the
vehicle has been added to permit the vehicle to travel at a speed of
not more than 30 miles per hour with a 150-pound rider on a dry,
level, hard surface with no wind and having a seat for the operator.
(b) A 2-wheeled or 3-wheeled vehicle that has fully operative pedals
for propulsion by human power and an electric motor of less than 750
watts and that is capable, when powered solely by the motor, of a
maximum speed of less than 20 miles per hour with a 170-pound rider on
a dry, level, hard surface with no wind.
Here's a useful page from the city's website. Although this page makes
no mention of bikes with something other than an electric motor, all
the prohibitions on using an electric bicycle also apply to motor
bicycles with gas engines.
http://www.cityofmadison.com/trafficEngineering/documents/ElecBikeLawsWeb20130520v.pdf
Chuck Strawser
Pedestrian & Bicycle Transportation Planner
Commuter Solutions
UW-Madison Transportation Services
Please note that my email address has changed. My new email is
charles.straw...@wisc.edu<mailto:charles.straw...@wisc.edu>
Visit our University Bicycle Resource Center at Helen C White:
http://transportation.wisc.edu/transportation/bike_annex.aspx
How are we doing? Take our customer satisfaction survey at
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CommSol_CSSurvey
From: Brian Mink [mailto:bcm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 10:22 AM
To: Chuck Strawser
Subject: Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health
Benefits of an Electric Bike
Thanks Chuck. Many jurisdictions go beyond the simple rule that
Madison has posted on bike trails by restricting maximum speed. Some
of the electric hub motors are quite capable of reaching 35 miles per
hour. I was passed by a high end trike last week that was probably
doing 30 mph outfitted with the most powerful BionX hub motor.
Madison's common courtesy and common sense "Yield to slower users" is
a nice start but I think Madison will likely have to deal with an
overall speed limit on bike trails, eventually.
Brian Mink
Chuck Strawser via Bikies<mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
July 8, 2016 at 10:14 AM
Brian Mink said: "I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow
electric bikes do have rules that include behaving in regard to
maximum speed, passing, remaining non aggressive and the like. Should
Madison have such rules and post them? Probably."
Madison already has rules, and does post them. They are on all the
wayfinding signs along bike paths all around town, and among those
rules is this one:
"Faster {path] users yield to slower users"
Which gets to the crux of the issue - how someone operates their
vehicle is often as important (or more important) to the safety of
others than exactly what kind of vehicle it is.
Chuck Strawser
Pedestrian & Bicycle Transportation Planner
Commuter Solutions
UW-Madison Transportation Services
Please note that my email address has changed. My new email is
charles.straw...@wisc.edu<mailto:charles.straw...@wisc.edu><mailto:charles.straw...@wisc.edu><mailto:charles.straw...@wisc.edu>
Visit our University Bicycle Resource Center at Helen C White:
http://transportation.wisc.edu/transportation/bike_annex.aspx
How are we doing? Take our customer satisfaction survey at
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CommSol_CSSurvey
From: Bikies [mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org] On Behalf Of
Brian Mink via Bikies
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 9:59 AM
To: rpaol...@execpc.com<mailto:rpaol...@execpc.com>
Cc: Scott Morris Rose; Bikies
Subject: Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health
Benefits of an Electric Bike
I happen to know folks who due to one arthritic malady or less than
optimal joint replacement surgery have opted for electric assist bikes
or wheels with hub motors.
I also have taken note of many more cyclists of larger habitus using
electric assist bikes. Then there are a whole bunch or cargo/kid
hauler electric assist bikes on trails around town.
I think they are a good thing. Most of us able bodied, hard core
enthusiasts will put off or scorn the thought of using electric
assist. Let's assume that most folks who use electric assist do so
based on some need that we probably don't know about. Many work places
don't have showers. Electric assist one could image, can keep one
below the gushing sweat threshold on the morning commute.
I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric bikes do
have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing,
remaining non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules
and post them? Probably.
Bottom line is: even the heartiest of urban cyclists might age into
the need for an electric assist bicycle at some point and then we'll
look back on our years of scorn and finally come to the conclusion
that we were not being understanding, nice or fair.
Brian Mink
Monona
via
Bikies<mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org><mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
July 8, 2016 at 9:45 AM
If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let
them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.
....
Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being
on the bike paths. And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.
I personally could not see myself wanting one. (Years ago I tried one when
someone from MGE was demo-ing one at some event and I wasn't impressed.)
But I also don't get all the hostility about them. I don't see how
discourteous/unsafe passing is any more or less obnoxious by someone on an
electric-assist bike than it is by someone on a traditional bike who
thinks he's doing Tour de France. A moron on an electric-assist bike is
not inherently worse or more dangerous than a moron in Spandex<tm>.
As for the opinion that most people using them will be former bicyclists,
so what? If it helps keep on a bike someone who has diminished physical
capability, what's wrong with that?
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Brian Mink<mailto:bcm...@gmail.com>
July 8, 2016 at 9:58 AM
I happen to know folks who due to one arthritic malady or less than
optimal joint replacement surgery have opted for electric assist bikes
or wheels with hub motors.
I also have taken note of many more cyclists of larger habitus using
electric assist bikes. Then there are a whole bunch or cargo/kid
hauler electric assist bikes on trails around town.
I think they are a good thing. Most of us able bodied, hard core
enthusiasts will put off or scorn the thought of using electric
assist. Let's assume that most folks who use electric assist do so
based on some need that we probably don't know about. Many work places
don't have showers. Electric assist one could image, can keep one
below the gushing sweat threshold on the morning commute.
I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric bikes do
have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing,
remaining non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules
and post them? Probably.
Bottom line is: even the heartiest of urban cyclists might age into
the need for an electric assist bicycle at some point and then we'll
look back on our years of scorn and finally come to the conclusion
that we were not being understanding, nice or fair.
Brian Mink
Monona
via Bikies<mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
July 8, 2016 at 9:45 AM
If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let
them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.
....
Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being
on the bike paths. And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.
> By far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.
I personally could not see myself wanting one. (Years ago I tried one when
someone from MGE was demo-ing one at some event and I wasn't impressed.)
But I also don't get all the hostility about them. I don't see how
discourteous/unsafe passing is any more or less obnoxious by someone on an
electric-assist bike than it is by someone on a traditional bike who
thinks he's doing Tour de France. A moron on an electric-assist bike is
not inherently worse or more dangerous than a moron in Spandex<tm>.
As for the opinion that most people using them will be former bicyclists,
so what? If it helps keep on a bike someone who has diminished physical
capability, what's wrong with that?
_______________________________________________
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http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
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Brian Mink <mailto:bcm...@gmail.com>
July 8, 2016 at 10:21 AM
Thanks Chuck. Many jurisdictions go beyond the simple rule that
Madison has posted on bike trails by restricting maximum speed. Some
of the electric hub motors are quite capable of reaching 35 miles per
hour. I was passed by a high end trike last week that was probably
doing 30 mph outfitted with the most powerful BionX hub motor.
Madison's common courtesy and common sense "Yield to slower users" is
a nice start but I think Madison will likely have to deal with an
overall speed limit on bike trails, eventually.
Brian Mink
Chuck Strawser via Bikies <mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
July 8, 2016 at 10:14 AM
Brian Mink said: "I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow
electric bikes do have rules that include behaving in regard to
maximum speed, passing, remaining non aggressive and the like. Should
Madison have such rules and post them? Probably."
Madison already has rules, and does post them. They are on all the
wayfinding signs along bike paths all around town, and among those
rules is this one:
"Faster {path] users yield to slower users"
Which gets to the crux of the issue - how someone operates their
vehicle is often as important (or more important) to the safety of
others than exactly what kind of vehicle it is.
Chuck Strawser
Pedestrian & Bicycle Transportation Planner
Commuter Solutions
UW-Madison Transportation Services
Please note that my email address has changed. My new email is
charles.straw...@wisc.edu<mailto:charles.straw...@wisc.edu>
Visit our University Bicycle Resource Center at Helen C White:
http://transportation.wisc.edu/transportation/bike_annex.aspx
How are we doing? Take our customer satisfaction survey at
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CommSol_CSSurvey
From: Bikies [mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org] On Behalf Of
Brian Mink via Bikies
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 9:59 AM
To: rpaol...@execpc.com
Cc: Scott Morris Rose; Bikies
Subject: Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health
Benefits of an Electric Bike
I happen to know folks who due to one arthritic malady or less than
optimal joint replacement surgery have opted for electric assist bikes
or wheels with hub motors.
I also have taken note of many more cyclists of larger habitus using
electric assist bikes. Then there are a whole bunch or cargo/kid
hauler electric assist bikes on trails around town.
I think they are a good thing. Most of us able bodied, hard core
enthusiasts will put off or scorn the thought of using electric
assist. Let's assume that most folks who use electric assist do so
based on some need that we probably don't know about. Many work places
don't have showers. Electric assist one could image, can keep one
below the gushing sweat threshold on the morning commute.
I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric bikes do
have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing,
remaining non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules
and post them? Probably.
Bottom line is: even the heartiest of urban cyclists might age into
the need for an electric assist bicycle at some point and then we'll
look back on our years of scorn and finally come to the conclusion
that we were not being understanding, nice or fair.
Brian Mink
Monona
via Bikies<mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
July 8, 2016 at 9:45 AM
If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let
them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.
....
Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being
on the bike paths. And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.
> By far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.
I personally could not see myself wanting one. (Years ago I tried one when
someone from MGE was demo-ing one at some event and I wasn't impressed.)
But I also don't get all the hostility about them. I don't see how
discourteous/unsafe passing is any more or less obnoxious by someone on an
electric-assist bike than it is by someone on a traditional bike who
thinks he's doing Tour de France. A moron on an electric-assist bike is
not inherently worse or more dangerous than a moron in Spandex<tm>.
As for the opinion that most people using them will be former bicyclists,
so what? If it helps keep on a bike someone who has diminished physical
capability, what's wrong with that?
_______________________________________________
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http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
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