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On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Gregory J. Barlow wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Jim Knoble wrote:
>
> > Circa 2001-Jul-25 13:24:48 -0400 dixit Jeff Raven:
> >
> > : On Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 12:52:42PM -0400, Gregory J. Barlow wrote:
> > : > I am unclear on where the marker would go, on the torn menu
> > : > itself, or on the menu a level up, showing it was torn. I see no
> > : > reason to specially label the torn menu itself or to put a close
> > : > button on it.
> >
> > I do; i've already explained why. Not putting a close button on the
> > torn-off menu's titlebar is like not putting a handle on a glass door:
> > it's virtually impossible to tell it apart from a large window.
> > Putting the handle on it shows two things: (1) it's not a window, and
> > (2) how to open it. It's good design.
>
> Putting a close button on a menu titlebar is not a consistent way to close
> the menu; window menus do not have titlebars. Right clicking on a menu to
> close it can also be done at any stage, whether the menu is torn or not.
>
> > : > Labeling that a menu has been torn off and is hence not accessible
> > : > would be useful.
> >
> > No, it wouldn't. Why should a torn-off menu not be accessible from its
> > parent menu? What if i forgot that i tore that menu off? When you
> > make the menu inaccessible, even though i usually access it from its
> > parent menu, that's called "excise", and it's bad design.
>
> If you bothered to look, torn off menus _are_ inaccessible from parent
> menus. I would prefer that they be accessible, but my point was centered
> around the current state of affairs. By the way, you seem to have a
> fairly definitive idea of good/bad design. You need to realize that you
> do not define the merit of a design for the rest of us.
>
> > : > In addition, it might be nice if one could unpin a menu by
> > : > clicking on its currently nonfunctional entry one level up in the
> > : > menu system. That way, if a menu has been torn off and one wants
> > : > to access it, one doesnt need to locate the menu on the screen.
> > : > This also provides a way to remove menus which have strayed off
> > : > the screen by the method described a few weeks ago on this list.
> >
> > That's actually a good idea (except that the menu entry ought still be
> > functional). Better to make a modified click do that, e.g.:
>
> Adding keybinding modifiers to the window manager is problematic, as we
> already know. I don't know the right answer here, though I would prefer
> the simplicity of a left click simply closing all open copies of a submenu
> and opening a new one.
What if instead of trying to find a way to squeeze them in, all the menus
stuff was stripped out of blackbox into a seperate app the way bbkeys took
all the keyboard stuff way back before i was around?
>
> > (On Submenu)
> >
> > [LeftClick] -> open the submenu
> > [Enter]
> >
> > [Control+LeftClick] -> close any torn off copies of this submenu
> > [Control+Enter]
> >
> > You get the idea. The root window maybe ought to do the same for
> > pinned top-level menus.
>
> I prefer the current behavior on the root window, in which a left click
> will clear all open top level menus.
>
> > : Hmm. Interesting thought.
> > :
> > : One problem is that clicking on a menu item which has a submenu
> > : can already have a meaning... The workspace menu, for instance,
> > : uses it as a signal to move to the appropriate workspace. But
> > : if you tear off that workspace's submenu, and then click on the
> > : workspace's name in the workspace menu, what is the reasonable
> > : behavior? Move to the workspace? Show the torn menu?
> >
> > There's not really any reason not to open another copy of a torn-off
> > menu when its item is chosen in the parent menu. This could be
> > particularly important for keyboard navigation of menus.
>
> See previous messages re: "this will only add a few kb to blackbox"
>
> > : Ugh. So many wrinkles to deal with. This is going to take a lot
> > : more thought on my part...
> >
> > Good user interfaces require a lot of forethought. I'm sure we're all
> > glad to see you forethinking, Jeff, and to help you when you need it.
>
> I tend to prefer simplicity. Blackbox is one of the few window managers
> where one can really get that. I just hope that is kept in mind.
>
>
xOr
- --
you have no chance to survive make your time
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