Hi mate, It's really bad that seemingly so many people have such little support. I mean, I'm unreasonably lucky in the support I had, although ironically I think that stemmed from an intended lack thereof.
When the doctors told my Mum I was blind, their "silver lining" was "well, MRS. Norman, they make great piano tuners". My Mum hates being told what she can and cannot do, and promptly told the doctors (I'm quoting): "He'll be a fucking jigalow before he becomes a piano tuner". Then my grandparents - who would have been the mollycoddling sort - told her how she was being too harsh on me, making me get my own drinks ETC, so she told them that she'd not be around forever, so that was just tough titty. Thirdly, the German teacher who used to come to see me (Mum and Dad were in the army, based in Germany), told Mum that it was great that she and my Dad included me in the family, as - according to him - many German families who had blind parents sent them away to special homes, and told the family they were still born. My mum is a seriously fierce lady, who won't hear any slight against her kids, and that was it. I wasn't going to be a blind kid, I was going to bloody well have the same opportunities as other children my age, and I was going to be a person who is blind, rather than a blind person. So yes, I have done painting, and I can handwrite, albeit pretty terribly. I could see a little when I was younger, so I guess I had yet another unfair advantage over many of my blind peers, although now that's all gone black, so I'm riding the blind boat my friends! :) Also, because Dad was away a lot with work (first the army and then with Securicore), he really made the most of it with us when he came back, so we'd build fires with him, and sit around them talking and toasting marshmallows, or whittling sticks with pen knives, or bike riding, or climbing trees. Me and my sister are proper little tear-aways! With the cutting and burning, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you should torch your kids to teach them that fire is scary, but similarly, if you tell them the metal stick they're toasting their marshmallow on will transfer heat and get hot, and they touch it anyways, they should absolutely be allowed to do that. Honestly, it'll hurt for 15 seconds, maybe require being run under hot water, but it's not life threatening, and the lesson is a lasting one. Same applies with blades. A Stanley blade will make a flesh wound, but if that doesn't get the message through, a wood axe will take your finger off. It's all a question of balance. Not sure about more sensible folks than I, but I simply cannot learn from other peoples' mistakes. You know when you go to a restaurant, and they say "Please be careful, the plate is hot"? You can guarantee, as soon as I reckon they're out of sight, I'm going to touch that damn plate to see if they're right. Saying about not being mollycoddled, but instead your mum not really knowing what to do with you, that's the third category that I tend to forget about, because fortunately, it's less common than overprotective parents. It's hardly surprising that your fine motor skills are shot if you weren't doing basic kid stuff like Pat A Cake, or playing with dollies (I thought action man was boring, and playing dress up was far more fun) to get your ittle fingers ready for zips and shirt buttons, and them stupid button flies that are so prevalent nowadays. All play is useful play, and you know the result of not having that interaction. You're absolutely right about kids not being able to sit on chairs. Satirical, but probably not a million miles from the truth! I've noticed that the kids play park opposite my house now has safety chains on the swings, so kids can't trap their fingers when swinging. I'm sorry - lots of people say I'm harsh for this - but I'd much rather kids get blood blisters from trapping their fingers in a swing chain, than rip a finger off because they don't have the proper respect for stuff like that when seeing their first bicycle chain, or - god forbid - a food processor for the first time. Anyways... Time to stop philosophising. If only I liked children: I could go work with them, and terrorise their parents into breeding loads of little blind rambos, to rock around the neighbourhoods clicking their tongues and setting fire to stuff from the comfort of their skateboards haha. Take care, Chris Norman On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 11:16, Damien Garwood <dam...@daygar.plus.com> wrote: > Hi Chris, > People who have the skill of echo location are lucky - I could never > grasp that! > As for competence versus safety: If you don't use the tools you have > then you're not going to look competent if you end up hurting yourself. > Think about it, those who are prejudiced will judge you regardless of > how you get around, so you may as well just bite the bullet. It's sad > when having a disability and being able to adapt life so you can attempt > to live (so-called) normally, is prejudiced by others, even in the 21st > century. In short, it makes me sick to think that a blind person doesn't > want to seem or look blind because of society's expectations. > As for physical activities, you could well be right. I wasn't really the > physical type of child. Even if we went out for a walk my legs would > hurt (but then Mum recently discovered that's likely because I'm > actually walking wrong). As for sports? Forget it. Put me near a gun, I > might be able to shoot a few rounds (yes, I did do acoustic shooting a > long time ago, but that was it). Put me in a swimming pool, you might > get thrown around and splashed a lot, but there'll be no swimming! > My mum didn't mollycoddle me. If anything, I don't think she ever quite > knew what to do with me (she was very young when I was born). My mum has > difficulties showing and explaining things to me even now, so you can > imagine how much she struggled even more so when I was a kid. In fact, I > always remember there were arguments between the school and my mum as to > who should be teaching me basic practical skills (like dealing with > different types of fastenings, using hooks, working out which is the > right way to put clothes on, handling money and so on). > I wouldn't agree with letting kids get cut and burned...That seems a bit > harsh to me. But I do agree that they should at least be allowed to have > a go. It doesn't help that UK's health and safety regulations have gone > to the dogs - soon they probably won't even let us sit on chairs due to > the risk that they'll snap from underneath us! > Now even I didn't realise hide and seek was a game that blind people > could play. Then again, I never had brothers or sisters until I went to > boarding school, and I never had friends as a young child, so that would > have been out of the question anyway. > Sounds like you had a lot of fun. All those games actually sound really > awesome, and are games that I would have never even dreamt of doing. > Just goes to show what's possible with the right support network! Bet > you're going to tell me you even had a go at writing and drawing and > painting next! > As for the last part of your message, yup, I fit all three of those > brackets, unfortunately. It took me seven years (yes, you read that > correctly, seven) to learn how to use a touchscreen phone because of my > fine motor skills (or lack thereof). > Cheers, > Damien. > > On 31/07/2020 09:31 am, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote: > > Hi, > > I hear what you're saying about your friend who couldn't find stuff too > > well. I used to laugh at blind folks using echo location. Now I'm a bit > > older, and don't care as much what people think of me, I cheerily > > exchange looking competent for feeling safer. > > > > In my experience - both through people I know, and people I work with - > > the main difference between people who can mental map "well", and those > > who can "not so well", seems to be the level and complexities of > > physical activities they performed when younger. > > > > For adults, this seems to be more how bloody minded they are: Those who > > approach their new found blindness as a challenge tend to get out there > > fairly quickly, and take the knocks while they haven't had the chance to > > think through how awful things could be. Those who sit back and worry > > about it tend to have worried themselves into a frenzy by the time it > > becomes necessary to get up and actually do something. In my experience, > > it's that latter group who struggle. > > > > If any of you have kids, I beg you to not be like the parents I have to > > work with, who mollycoddle their kids. Be that parent who lets their > > kids climb trees, build fires, and run around with their mates. Show > > them how to use tools like knives and drills. Let them get cut, and > > burnt and gather blisters. Seriously, so many people tell me how amazing > > I am. I don't see it personally, I just think I had normal parents who > > weren't afraid to let me take the knocks, but it's a parenting style I > > see less and less these days. > > > > When I was younger, I used to play hide and seek with my sighted sister > > and her friends. The learning went both ways: I learnt that I couldn't > > just stand quietly in the centre of a room, and they learnt that they > > couldn't just stand in front of me and stay still. Mutual respect earnt > > and gained. > > > > If you want games, hide and seek has to be natures best way of teaching > > blind and sighted kids a whole multitude of stuff: How to move quietly, > > what materials are transparent, and which ones only show shadows, how > > much noise a still body makes, how big a space you can fit your body in. > > > > Sadly, I think in this modern world of liability, correct speaking, and > > buck-passing, it's far easier to shove kids into a corner and let them > > play a computer game than to invent something amazing. > > > > If you're looking for an amazing experience that doesn't involve spacial > > awareness, shut down your computer, get yourself a tambourine, and fill > > it with crap. Pass it round a circle without making a noise. Every time > > it goes around the circle, remove a piece of stuff from it... Make sure > > there's balls, and pens, and anything else that will roll inside it. > > That will teach you to hold stuff level. A few rounds of that, and > > you'll not be confused as to which way you're holding your cup of tea. > > > > Seriously, kids learn from play! It's our job as gamers to make sure as > > many of the next generation of blind folks as possible get the best > > input when it really counts, before they get old enough to realise their > > fine motor skills are shot because they always had the more delicate > > things done for them, they can't find anything because they were always > > guided, and they have their own deficiencies lodged in their brains > > because everyone said "Oh, you can't do that". > > > > There endeth today's sirman! :P > > > > Take care, > > > > Chris Norman > > > > > > > > On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 05:53, Christy S <christys1...@gmail.com > > <mailto:christys1...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > Damien and others, > > > > > > I know I'm behind on this. I tend to skip over a lot of posts > depending > > on subject, but a conversation or two over the last few days got me > > thinking about this. > > > > > > First thing's first. The reason the game you mentioned said 6:00 is > > that > > many people refer to directions using the face of a clock. Not a > > digital > > one that flashes numbers, but an analog clock that has an hour and > > minute hand that goes around a circle. Without going into a lot of > > detail that will probably just confuse you, no insult at all intended > > there, saying an enemy is at 6:00 probably means behind you. > > > > > > I wanted to touch on the more generalized concept of spatial > awareness, > > however. Many, though not all, audio games use spatial awareness as a > > foundation of playing the game. It wasn't until more recently that I > > realized this isn't always practical for some. In the past, the > > people I > > had run into who had poor spatial concepts or skills also had other > > cognitive issues and I suppose, without even realizing it, I lumped > the > > two together in my mind. > > > > > > I'm one of those who have always had decent spatial awareness, or > > mental > > mapping as Damien said. In fact, I used the term mental mapping > > before I > > knew a more correct term. I've always thought the reason I could do > > this > > so well had to do with having a little sight when I was younger, thus > > helping my brain to develop decently in that area. But really, when I > > map something in my head, it's more like picturing a miniature > version > > of the space as I understand it. For example, I can sit here on my > bed > > in the bedroom and picture the entire layout of this apartment, > > including where furniture and other large items are. I can even > picture > > the basic layout of a house I lived in over 15 years ago, and using > > that > > mentally plan how I could get from any one point to any second > > point, in > > either place. > > > > > > Anyway, I've recently been talking to someone I now consider a good > > friend, and this person struggles a lot with any kind of spatial > > awareness. Their general intelligence, though, is totally fine, with > no > > other cognitive difficulties that I'm aware of. Likewise, reading > > Damien's message here, I don't see any hint of cognitive delays and > > that > > just confirms to me that I need to very much rethink that > subconscious > > connection my mind has made. Unfortunately, this is common in the > blind > > community. If a blind person isn't out walking everywhere, taking > > public > > transit all the time etc, they tend to be seen as either dumb or > lazy. > > If a person admits they can't figure out on their own how to get to a > > place two blocks away, they're often met with shocked disapproval or > > worse. I mentioned to this friend that the house I used to live in > > had a > > very large, wide open kitchen as the center of the house and they > just > > groaned. In fact, a different friend who sadly has since passed who > had > > similar struggles and would get utterly disoriented in that kitchen. > > She > > could be standing by the fridge, and no matter how many times we had > > shown her before, could not figure out how to get to a bedroom that > was > > probably 10 or 15 feet away. Looking back now, my then roommate and I > > could have handled that situation very differently and more > gracefully. > > We just could not understand why she wasn't getting it. > > > > > > The fact is, for whatever reason, there are those who, in addition > > to or > > because of blindness, literally don't have the mental ability to > > understand spatial concepts. It's not that they don't want to, or > that > > they just haven't been taught right, but their brain quite literally > > can't process that kind of information. I think there might be some > > connection between that and never having sight, but it also seems to > be > > a lot more complicated than that with certain eye conditions playing > a > > part. The best parallel I can think of us for those of us who have no > > memory of sight, having someone try to explain colors to us. We can > > memorize certain things, red is hot for example, but our brains don't > > have the ability to bring what that color looks like into our minds > > because there's no concept of vision or varying colors to build on. > > > > > > This sounds very similar to what you're dealing with Damien. I would > > never discourage attempting to learn, and if you can find a way that > > works for you, that is totally awesome. If you can't, though, please > > don't think that it means you are stupid or any other negative > > thing. It > > could simply be that your brain isn't wired to be able to process > > spatial concepts for whatever reason, and you should stick with > > whatever > > methods work for you. > > > > > > For those of us who do have that kind of spatial awareness, I really > > hope we can all be understanding and not wave off these types of > > limitations as stupidity or laziness or anything of the sort. I'm > > talking to myself here too. As for those that find these 3d or 2d > audio > > games overwhelming and confusing, I hope you can find others that > work > > for you. Side scrollers come to mind, as those generally only have > > forward and backward, sometimes up and down. This entire thing has me > > pondering ideas for emersive audio games with excellent storylines > that > > don't require the ability to navigate as a primary skill for > gameplay. > > > > > > Christy > > > > > > > > On 7/27/2020 1:15 PM, Damien Garwood wrote: > > > Hi, > > > This will be quite a long message, because I'm starting to realise > > > just how complicated spatial awareness can actually be. > > > This is a thing I've been struggling with for years. I only > > managed A > > > Hero's Call because following a beacon is like playing a reflex > > game. > > > It says north, you turn around until it says north. Even then > > though, > > > someone had to tell me that. I have no real understanding as to > what > > > that means or where I'm going. In fact, during times when you > can't > > > rely on beacons to get you places (like the goblin campsites and > so > > > on), someone actually had to do that for me! > > > As for Tank Commander, if it weren't for Raul's playthrough, I > would > > > have never beaten it. > > > Same in the real world, I always struggled with mobility. When I > > > learned a route it was a case of remembering a set of > instructions. > > > That's why I often call it the "Bop-it dance" or the "Robot's > > dance". > > > Think about it...Walk 20, turn right, walk 10...Just a glorified > > > algorithm. > > > If someone tells me to try and do the route in reverse, I wouldn't > > > have a clue. > > > You tell me to turn right, and I can do it. You ask me what's to > the > > > left of me, or what direction are the stairs from my front door, > I'd > > > have no idea, without physically going there. When my mum used to > > tell > > > me to get out of the car and walk round the back, I wouldn't know > > what > > > direction that was, because once I'm out of the car my direction > has > > > changed. And then there's the big one. If cars are moving forwards > > > then why do they pan left to right? Or, if I'm sat in a vehicle > > that's > > > reversing, why does it feel like it's moving forwards? What am I > > told? > > > Surprise surprise, it's to do with directions again. And they all > > have > > > one thing in common - it's the direction your facing. > > > I always thought that, although I could move in a given > direction, I > > > always struggled when I faced a different direction to what I'm > > used to. > > > My mum disagrees, and puts it like this: I don't have any "mental > > > mapping skills". Thinking about it, I guess I can say that's > > accurate. > > > I never know where I am relative to other things, or where they > are > > > relative to me (Unless of course I can reach out and physically > > touch > > > it). > > > I guess that's why I wasn't taught other forms of navigation. > > compass > > > directions are just a series of meaningless words to me. All I > > know is > > > that the compass has something to do with the sun. > > > And don't even get me started on the clockface...When I tried 3d > > > Velocity and it told me there was an enemy at 06:00, I actually > went > > > looking in the manual for a way to check the gametime! Of course > > > there's nothing in there, then someone corrected me and said, no, > > it's > > > referencing direction, not time. As far as I know, I hit a button > on > > > my clock or computer and it tells me the time. What on earth has > > that > > > got to do with directions? I guess the only thing I can think of > is > > > that they say the past is behind you and the future is in > > > front...Headache tablets anyone? > > > I've also seen things like turning to 90 or 160 (they just sound > > like > > > arbitrary numbers to me). Eurofly deals with latitude longitude > and > > > altitude. There just seems to be so much to consider with space. > > > I'd just say give me an x and a y coordinate. But then I've seen > > that > > > in different ways (0 0 being bottom left in some cases, and top > left > > > in others, and then someone told me that could also refer to the > > > centre under some circumstances as well). Also I've had disputes > in > > > the past as to whether the Y coordinate represents forwards and > > > backwards, or up and down. I always thought z was up and down, but > > > they'd argue that when you're talking 2d, y is up and down. But I > > > thought if you're working with 2d, you're talking about something > > > that's flat (unless of course you're playing BK3!) > > > Then, as if that wasn't enough, even my certainty about up and > down > > > came into question a few months ago when I learned that the world > > was > > > just a big ball. In that case, people on the other side of the > ball > > > would say that their up was our down...And then they told me the > > earth > > > is spinning, so our directions are always changing > anyway...Sheesh! > > > Thank goodness we don't have that level of complexity in games! > > > Honestly. Sometimes I think I ought to have a physics degree if > I'm > > > going to understand all this! And there was me thinking that > spatial > > > awareness was meant to be a basic skill. > > > As it is, I'm determined to learn this. I've gone six or seven > years > > > without any mobility training now because I just can't get my head > > > around it. Now I'm trying again, and I thought that if I can > > > understand how these games work, maybe it will improve my mental > > > mapping skills and thus my mobility training, and stop everyone > > > getting impatient with me and telling me what an idiot or slow > > learner > > > I am. > > > Cheers, > > > Damien. > > > > > > On 27/07/2020 04:08 pm, Luke Hewitt wrote: > > >> I've found myself, that practicing has actually improved my > ability > > >> to navigate in games. > > >> > > >> When I started with shades of doom and gma tank commander, I was > > >> having trouble, and it wasn't until I thought out the physical > > >> spacial awareness test myself that I managed to get my head > around > > >> the idea, since my own comprehension of space is actually pretty > > crappy. > > >> > > >> > > >> What I do do though, both in games and rl, is to use landmarks > as > > >> guides, sound sources, smells, and working out what direction I > > have > > >> to go from such and such is often a good way around. > > >> > > >> > > >> A hero's call I can't speak about as I've yet to get into that > > game, > > >> but I know in shades of doom, using the sound sources of the > > >> corridors and many of the tools already provided like > > coordinates and > > >> the reminders of where I've gone before, helped considerably. > > >> > > >> > > >> All the best, > > >> > > >> > > >> Dark. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. 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