That's really interesting!
It's challenged my - admittedly narrow-minded - way of seeing things.
A developmental psychologist I am not, but I find this stuff so damn
fascinating! I'd love to sit and have a drink with you, and hear about
your experiences with things.
As a point of personal interest (and feel free to reply privately if
you feel this is getting too off-topic), how's your grasp of material
recognition? I mean, when you had to hide, did you know what it was
safe to hide behind, without casting a shadow, or being seen through
glass?
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, who has never met
another blind person other than me. I was telling her about a case I'd
heard of where a blind couple got done for having sex in a phone box
in broad daylight, because they didn't realise the walls of said phone
box were transparent. She thought it was hilarious, and couldn't grasp
why you wouldn't know glass was transparent. That got me wondering how
anyone who can't see would know that stuff. Obviously you pick up in
the end, but it strikes me that an avid hide and seek player would
probably know that instinctively, because kids are obviously going to
tell you how they caught you.
Also, with the routes thing, do you mean you have no concept of going
back on yourself, block routes, and reverse direction of travel? I
think it was you who said they coudln't reverse routes in your head.
To bring this whole thing back to games somewhat, I wonder if there is
any way that a game system could be developed to help blind people get
a handle on this sort of thing, or whether tactile maps or german film
are the answer.
What Do you feel would help you? It would be fairly trivial to produce
a system where a mobility instructor could create a to-scale virtual
map of a given route, that you could scrutinise at your leisure on
your computer, but would that even help? Or would that just over
complicate things?
The system could be extended to introduce certain variables, like
heavy traffic, or road works making a ton of noise, low-flying
helicopters, high winds, that kind of thing.
MMM, the mind races!
Take care,
Chris Norman
On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 15:55, Jessica Hodges <jlhodg...@gmail.com
<mailto:jlhodg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hello.
I would challenge, a little, the notion that mental mapping is
tied to
how much activity someone has had growing up. My mother encouraged
me to
wander, to play outside, sledding, etc. If I wanted to do
something, she
didn't tell me no, and she frequently pushed me to do things even
when I
didn't want to. Hide and seek was one of my favorite childhood games,
because I've always liked small places and I liked finding unusual
spots
for me and my three brothers, (two more would come later) to hide. I
would often wrestle with them, slide down the stairs with them on my
back, and other assorted things, so I think its safe to say that,
while
I tended towards staying in and reading books, that I was not cut off
from physical activity and exploration. And yet, when I was
younger, I'd
get lost even on my own block. My mother says, when I was really
small,
I even had trouble with getting off the porch. Thankfully by now I
have
progressed, (mostly,) to the point that, a lot of the time, unless
I'm
really confused, that wouldn't be an issue, but I still, for example,
don't understand how going around a block gets you to the same
point you
started from because you turned and had to walk along streets in the
process, and I did, just the other week, get lost going to a diner
just
a block away where I needed to cross nothing, (don't ask me how I
managed to do that, :() Anyhow all that to say, I don't think that's
quite where the connection is. If I had to hazard a guess, I
think it
has to do, more than anything, with how the brain is wired.
Coddling or
the lack thereof, frankly, won't fix that.
I hope this ramble of a message has made sense, and beg pardon if it
didn't, it has been written before breakfast by a very sleepy
person. :)
Jessica.
On 7/31/2020 5:16 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:
> Hi Chris,
> People who have the skill of echo location are lucky - I could
never
> grasp that!
> As for competence versus safety: If you don't use the tools you
have
> then you're not going to look competent if you end up hurting
> yourself. Think about it, those who are prejudiced will judge you
> regardless of how you get around, so you may as well just bite the
> bullet. It's sad when having a disability and being able to
adapt life
> so you can attempt to live (so-called) normally, is prejudiced by
> others, even in the 21st century. In short, it makes me sick to
think
> that a blind person doesn't want to seem or look blind because of
> society's expectations.
> As for physical activities, you could well be right. I wasn't
really
> the physical type of child. Even if we went out for a walk my legs
> would hurt (but then Mum recently discovered that's likely
because I'm
> actually walking wrong). As for sports? Forget it. Put me near a
gun,
> I might be able to shoot a few rounds (yes, I did do acoustic
shooting
> a long time ago, but that was it). Put me in a swimming pool, you
> might get thrown around and splashed a lot, but there'll be no
swimming!
> My mum didn't mollycoddle me. If anything, I don't think she ever
> quite knew what to do with me (she was very young when I was
born). My
> mum has difficulties showing and explaining things to me even
now, so
> you can imagine how much she struggled even more so when I was a
kid.
> In fact, I always remember there were arguments between the
school and
> my mum as to who should be teaching me basic practical skills (like
> dealing with different types of fastenings, using hooks, working
out
> which is the right way to put clothes on, handling money and so on).
> I wouldn't agree with letting kids get cut and burned...That
seems a
> bit harsh to me. But I do agree that they should at least be
allowed
> to have a go. It doesn't help that UK's health and safety
regulations
> have gone to the dogs - soon they probably won't even let us sit on
> chairs due to the risk that they'll snap from underneath us!
> Now even I didn't realise hide and seek was a game that blind
people
> could play. Then again, I never had brothers or sisters until I
went
> to boarding school, and I never had friends as a young child, so
that
> would have been out of the question anyway.
> Sounds like you had a lot of fun. All those games actually sound
> really awesome, and are games that I would have never even
dreamt of
> doing. Just goes to show what's possible with the right support
> network! Bet you're going to tell me you even had a go at
writing and
> drawing and painting next!
> As for the last part of your message, yup, I fit all three of those
> brackets, unfortunately. It took me seven years (yes, you read that
> correctly, seven) to learn how to use a touchscreen phone
because of
> my fine motor skills (or lack thereof).
> Cheers,
> Damien.
>
> On 31/07/2020 09:31 am, Chris Norman via groups.io
<http://groups.io> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I hear what you're saying about your friend who couldn't find
stuff
>> too well. I used to laugh at blind folks using echo location.
Now I'm
>> a bit older, and don't care as much what people think of me, I
>> cheerily exchange looking competent for feeling safer.
>>
>> In my experience - both through people I know, and people I
work with
>> - the main difference between people who can mental map "well",
and
>> those who can "not so well", seems to be the level and
complexities
>> of physical activities they performed when younger.
>>
>> For adults, this seems to be more how bloody minded they are:
Those
>> who approach their new found blindness as a challenge tend to
get out
>> there fairly quickly, and take the knocks while they haven't
had the
>> chance to think through how awful things could be. Those who
sit back
>> and worry about it tend to have worried themselves into a
frenzy by
>> the time it becomes necessary to get up and actually do
something. In
>> my experience, it's that latter group who struggle.
>>
>> If any of you have kids, I beg you to not be like the parents I
have
>> to work with, who mollycoddle their kids. Be that parent who lets
>> their kids climb trees, build fires, and run around with their
mates.
>> Show them how to use tools like knives and drills. Let them get
cut,
>> and burnt and gather blisters. Seriously, so many people tell
me how
>> amazing I am. I don't see it personally, I just think I had normal
>> parents who weren't afraid to let me take the knocks, but it's a
>> parenting style I see less and less these days.
>>
>> When I was younger, I used to play hide and seek with my sighted
>> sister and her friends. The learning went both ways: I learnt
that I
>> couldn't just stand quietly in the centre of a room, and they
learnt
>> that they couldn't just stand in front of me and stay still.
Mutual
>> respect earnt and gained.
>>
>> If you want games, hide and seek has to be natures best way of
>> teaching blind and sighted kids a whole multitude of stuff: How to
>> move quietly, what materials are transparent, and which ones only
>> show shadows, how much noise a still body makes, how big a
space you
>> can fit your body in.
>>
>> Sadly, I think in this modern world of liability, correct
speaking,
>> and buck-passing, it's far easier to shove kids into a corner
and let
>> them play a computer game than to invent something amazing.
>>
>> If you're looking for an amazing experience that doesn't involve
>> spacial awareness, shut down your computer, get yourself a
>> tambourine, and fill it with crap. Pass it round a circle without
>> making a noise. Every time it goes around the circle, remove a
piece
>> of stuff from it... Make sure there's balls, and pens, and
anything
>> else that will roll inside it. That will teach you to hold stuff
>> level. A few rounds of that, and you'll not be confused as to
which
>> way you're holding your cup of tea.
>>
>> Seriously, kids learn from play! It's our job as gamers to make
sure
>> as many of the next generation of blind folks as possible get the
>> best input when it really counts, before they get old enough to
>> realise their fine motor skills are shot because they always
had the
>> more delicate things done for them, they can't find anything
because
>> they were always guided, and they have their own deficiencies
lodged
>> in their brains because everyone said "Oh, you can't do that".
>>
>> There endeth today's sirman! :P
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> Chris Norman
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 05:53, Christy S <christys1...@gmail.com
<mailto:christys1...@gmail.com>
>> <mailto:christys1...@gmail.com
<mailto:christys1...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>
>> Damien and others,
>>
>>
>> I know I'm behind on this. I tend to skip over a lot of posts
>> depending
>> on subject, but a conversation or two over the last few
days got me
>> thinking about this.
>>
>>
>> First thing's first. The reason the game you mentioned said
6:00 is
>> that
>> many people refer to directions using the face of a clock.
Not a
>> digital
>> one that flashes numbers, but an analog clock that has an
hour and
>> minute hand that goes around a circle. Without going into a
lot of
>> detail that will probably just confuse you, no insult at all
>> intended
>> there, saying an enemy is at 6:00 probably means behind you.
>>
>>
>> I wanted to touch on the more generalized concept of spatial
>> awareness,
>> however. Many, though not all, audio games use spatial
awareness
>> as a
>> foundation of playing the game. It wasn't until more
recently that I
>> realized this isn't always practical for some. In the past, the
>> people I
>> had run into who had poor spatial concepts or skills also
had other
>> cognitive issues and I suppose, without even realizing it, I
>> lumped the
>> two together in my mind.
>>
>>
>> I'm one of those who have always had decent spatial
awareness, or
>> mental
>> mapping as Damien said. In fact, I used the term mental mapping
>> before I
>> knew a more correct term. I've always thought the reason I
could do
>> this
>> so well had to do with having a little sight when I was
younger,
>> thus
>> helping my brain to develop decently in that area. But really,
>> when I
>> map something in my head, it's more like picturing a miniature
>> version
>> of the space as I understand it. For example, I can sit
here on
>> my bed
>> in the bedroom and picture the entire layout of this apartment,
>> including where furniture and other large items are. I can
even
>> picture
>> the basic layout of a house I lived in over 15 years ago,
and using
>> that
>> mentally plan how I could get from any one point to any second
>> point, in
>> either place.
>>
>>
>> Anyway, I've recently been talking to someone I now
consider a good
>> friend, and this person struggles a lot with any kind of
spatial
>> awareness. Their general intelligence, though, is totally
fine,
>> with no
>> other cognitive difficulties that I'm aware of. Likewise,
reading
>> Damien's message here, I don't see any hint of cognitive
delays and
>> that
>> just confirms to me that I need to very much rethink that
>> subconscious
>> connection my mind has made. Unfortunately, this is common
in the
>> blind
>> community. If a blind person isn't out walking everywhere,
taking
>> public
>> transit all the time etc, they tend to be seen as either
dumb or
>> lazy.
>> If a person admits they can't figure out on their own how
to get
>> to a
>> place two blocks away, they're often met with shocked
disapproval or
>> worse. I mentioned to this friend that the house I used to
live in
>> had a
>> very large, wide open kitchen as the center of the house
and they
>> just
>> groaned. In fact, a different friend who sadly has since
passed
>> who had
>> similar struggles and would get utterly disoriented in that
kitchen.
>> She
>> could be standing by the fridge, and no matter how many
times we had
>> shown her before, could not figure out how to get to a bedroom
>> that was
>> probably 10 or 15 feet away. Looking back now, my then
roommate
>> and I
>> could have handled that situation very differently and more
>> gracefully.
>> We just could not understand why she wasn't getting it.
>>
>>
>> The fact is, for whatever reason, there are those who, in
addition
>> to or
>> because of blindness, literally don't have the mental
ability to
>> understand spatial concepts. It's not that they don't want
to, or
>> that
>> they just haven't been taught right, but their brain quite
literally
>> can't process that kind of information. I think there might
be some
>> connection between that and never having sight, but it also
seems
>> to be
>> a lot more complicated than that with certain eye conditions
>> playing a
>> part. The best parallel I can think of us for those of us who
>> have no
>> memory of sight, having someone try to explain colors to
us. We can
>> memorize certain things, red is hot for example, but our
brains
>> don't
>> have the ability to bring what that color looks like into
our minds
>> because there's no concept of vision or varying colors to
build on.
>>
>>
>> This sounds very similar to what you're dealing with
Damien. I would
>> never discourage attempting to learn, and if you can find a
way that
>> works for you, that is totally awesome. If you can't,
though, please
>> don't think that it means you are stupid or any other negative
>> thing. It
>> could simply be that your brain isn't wired to be able to
process
>> spatial concepts for whatever reason, and you should stick with
>> whatever
>> methods work for you.
>>
>>
>> For those of us who do have that kind of spatial awareness,
I really
>> hope we can all be understanding and not wave off these
types of
>> limitations as stupidity or laziness or anything of the
sort. I'm
>> talking to myself here too. As for those that find these 3d
or 2d
>> audio
>> games overwhelming and confusing, I hope you can find
others that
>> work
>> for you. Side scrollers come to mind, as those generally
only have
>> forward and backward, sometimes up and down. This entire thing
>> has me
>> pondering ideas for emersive audio games with excellent
>> storylines that
>> don't require the ability to navigate as a primary skill for
>> gameplay.
>>
>>
>> Christy
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/27/2020 1:15 PM, Damien Garwood wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> > This will be quite a long message, because I'm starting to
>> realise
>> > just how complicated spatial awareness can actually be.
>> > This is a thing I've been struggling with for years. I only
>> managed A
>> > Hero's Call because following a beacon is like playing a
reflex
>> game.
>> > It says north, you turn around until it says north. Even
then
>> though,
>> > someone had to tell me that. I have no real
understanding as
>> to what
>> > that means or where I'm going. In fact, during times
when you
>> can't
>> > rely on beacons to get you places (like the goblin
campsites
>> and so
>> > on), someone actually had to do that for me!
>> > As for Tank Commander, if it weren't for Raul's
playthrough, I
>> would
>> > have never beaten it.
>> > Same in the real world, I always struggled with
mobility. When I
>> > learned a route it was a case of remembering a set of
>> instructions.
>> > That's why I often call it the "Bop-it dance" or the
"Robot's
>> dance".
>> > Think about it...Walk 20, turn right, walk 10...Just a
glorified
>> > algorithm.
>> > If someone tells me to try and do the route in reverse, I
>> wouldn't
>> > have a clue.
>> > You tell me to turn right, and I can do it. You ask me
what's
>> to the
>> > left of me, or what direction are the stairs from my front
>> door, I'd
>> > have no idea, without physically going there. When my
mum used to
>> tell
>> > me to get out of the car and walk round the back, I
wouldn't know
>> what
>> > direction that was, because once I'm out of the car my
>> direction has
>> > changed. And then there's the big one. If cars are moving
>> forwards
>> > then why do they pan left to right? Or, if I'm sat in a
vehicle
>> that's
>> > reversing, why does it feel like it's moving forwards?
What am I
>> told?
>> > Surprise surprise, it's to do with directions again. And
they all
>> have
>> > one thing in common - it's the direction your facing.
>> > I always thought that, although I could move in a given
>> direction, I
>> > always struggled when I faced a different direction to
what I'm
>> used to.
>> > My mum disagrees, and puts it like this: I don't have
any "mental
>> > mapping skills". Thinking about it, I guess I can say that's
>> accurate.
>> > I never know where I am relative to other things, or where
>> they are
>> > relative to me (Unless of course I can reach out and
physically
>> touch
>> > it).
>> > I guess that's why I wasn't taught other forms of
navigation.
>> compass
>> > directions are just a series of meaningless words to me.
All I
>> know is
>> > that the compass has something to do with the sun.
>> > And don't even get me started on the clockface...When I
tried 3d
>> > Velocity and it told me there was an enemy at 06:00, I
>> actually went
>> > looking in the manual for a way to check the gametime!
Of course
>> > there's nothing in there, then someone corrected me and
said, no,
>> it's
>> > referencing direction, not time. As far as I know, I hit a
>> button on
>> > my clock or computer and it tells me the time. What on
earth has
>> that
>> > got to do with directions? I guess the only thing I can
think
>> of is
>> > that they say the past is behind you and the future is in
>> > front...Headache tablets anyone?
>> > I've also seen things like turning to 90 or 160 (they
just sound
>> like
>> > arbitrary numbers to me). Eurofly deals with latitude
>> longitude and
>> > altitude. There just seems to be so much to consider
with space.
>> > I'd just say give me an x and a y coordinate. But then
I've seen
>> that
>> > in different ways (0 0 being bottom left in some cases, and
>> top left
>> > in others, and then someone told me that could also
refer to the
>> > centre under some circumstances as well). Also I've had
>> disputes in
>> > the past as to whether the Y coordinate represents
forwards and
>> > backwards, or up and down. I always thought z was up and
down,
>> but
>> > they'd argue that when you're talking 2d, y is up and
down. But I
>> > thought if you're working with 2d, you're talking about
something
>> > that's flat (unless of course you're playing BK3!)
>> > Then, as if that wasn't enough, even my certainty about
up and
>> down
>> > came into question a few months ago when I learned that
the world
>> was
>> > just a big ball. In that case, people on the other side
of the
>> ball
>> > would say that their up was our down...And then they
told me the
>> earth
>> > is spinning, so our directions are always changing
>> anyway...Sheesh!
>> > Thank goodness we don't have that level of complexity in
games!
>> > Honestly. Sometimes I think I ought to have a physics
degree
>> if I'm
>> > going to understand all this! And there was me thinking
that
>> spatial
>> > awareness was meant to be a basic skill.
>> > As it is, I'm determined to learn this. I've gone six or
seven
>> years
>> > without any mobility training now because I just can't
get my
>> head
>> > around it. Now I'm trying again, and I thought that if I can
>> > understand how these games work, maybe it will improve
my mental
>> > mapping skills and thus my mobility training, and stop
everyone
>> > getting impatient with me and telling me what an idiot
or slow
>> learner
>> > I am.
>> > Cheers,
>> > Damien.
>> >
>> > On 27/07/2020 04:08 pm, Luke Hewitt wrote:
>> >> I've found myself, that practicing has actually
improved my
>> ability
>> >> to navigate in games.
>> >>
>> >> When I started with shades of doom and gma tank
commander, I was
>> >> having trouble, and it wasn't until I thought out the
physical
>> >> spacial awareness test myself that I managed to get my
head
>> around
>> >> the idea, since my own comprehension of space is
actually pretty
>> crappy.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> What I do do though, both in games and rl, is to use
>> landmarks as
>> >> guides, sound sources, smells, and working out what
direction I
>> have
>> >> to go from such and such is often a good way around.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> A hero's call I can't speak about as I've yet to get
into that
>> game,
>> >> but I know in shades of doom, using the sound sources
of the
>> >> corridors and many of the tools already provided like
>> coordinates and
>> >> the reminders of where I've gone before, helped
considerably.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> All the best,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dark.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
