Wow, no more questions, your honour. That is fascinating though! I never realised that a person couldn't tell when they'd made a dramatic turn to the point they'd feel like they were always travelling straight. I mean, I've done it with gradual turns, but yeah, what you describe is a whole new kind of fascinating.
Take care, Chris Norman On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 06:57, Jessica Hodges <jlhodg...@gmail.com> wrote: > hmm, that's a bit of a complicated question. I know general things, for > example that glass is see through, but I'm not good at knowing the affects > of light, shadow, angle, things like that, so I very well might have cast > shadows, I don't remember by now. > > I'm not sure about computerized maps. I've never seen that really done > well but I'd be curious. The same goes for game ideas. Tactile maps really, > really confuse me, because I don't especially grasp the differences in > point of view from what's on paper to where I am and what I'm experiencing. > I can be looking at a map, then, but it doesn't really explain, > necessarily, what I'm going to see/run into, and I get confused because I'm > somewhere else. Additionally, I get sort of overwhelmed/bogged down with > the information present, so many lines and directions and labels and... As > a result, they don't admittedly end up helping much. Simple maps still > frustrate me as well, mostly due to the point of view issue discussed > above. I suspect it has to do with not having a basis in things a lot of > people would deem simple and intuitive, but perhaps I'm over representing > things, there. Though I am curious about the ways a computer could change > this, I suspect I'd run into some of the same problems, particularly with > scale and point of view. > > Yes, it was me who talked about reversing things. I can reverse directions > ok, if given steps or whatever, but I don't always understand how doing > something can get you back where you began. This is likely complicated by > the fact that, to me, it always feels like I'm walking straight, I have no > real basis for where I am vs. where I was vs. where I need to be, so I > never see how all the pieces fit together. > > > A practical example. Because of the way that my brain processes sounds, > all traffic, especially heavy traffic, always sounds like its coming at me > from an angle, no matter where I'm standing. This makes lining up to cross > streets very difficult. If I cross, and end up going diagonally, I'll end > up somewhere and, because of the way that my mind works, have no clue where > I'm at in relation to where I need to be and I end up hopelessly lost with > no basis for really finding myself again, though it was a little mistake. > > I hope what I've said makes sense. Feel free to write on or off list if > you have more questions/commentary. > > Jessica. > > > > > On 8/1/2020 5:41 PM, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote: > > That's really interesting! > > It's challenged my - admittedly narrow-minded - way of seeing things. A > developmental psychologist I am not, but I find this stuff so damn > fascinating! I'd love to sit and have a drink with you, and hear about your > experiences with things. > > As a point of personal interest (and feel free to reply privately if you > feel this is getting too off-topic), how's your grasp of material > recognition? I mean, when you had to hide, did you know what it was safe to > hide behind, without casting a shadow, or being seen through glass? > > I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, who has never met another > blind person other than me. I was telling her about a case I'd heard of > where a blind couple got done for having sex in a phone box in broad > daylight, because they didn't realise the walls of said phone box were > transparent. She thought it was hilarious, and couldn't grasp why you > wouldn't know glass was transparent. That got me wondering how anyone who > can't see would know that stuff. Obviously you pick up in the end, but it > strikes me that an avid hide and seek player would probably know that > instinctively, because kids are obviously going to tell you how they caught > you. > > Also, with the routes thing, do you mean you have no concept of going back > on yourself, block routes, and reverse direction of travel? I think it was > you who said they coudln't reverse routes in your head. > > To bring this whole thing back to games somewhat, I wonder if there is any > way that a game system could be developed to help blind people get a handle > on this sort of thing, or whether tactile maps or german film are the > answer. > > What Do you feel would help you? It would be fairly trivial to produce a > system where a mobility instructor could create a to-scale virtual map of a > given route, that you could scrutinise at your leisure on your computer, > but would that even help? Or would that just over complicate things? > > The system could be extended to introduce certain variables, like heavy > traffic, or road works making a ton of noise, low-flying helicopters, high > winds, that kind of thing. > > MMM, the mind races! > > Take care, > > Chris Norman > > > > On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 15:55, Jessica Hodges <jlhodg...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hello. >> I would challenge, a little, the notion that mental mapping is tied to >> how much activity someone has had growing up. My mother encouraged me to >> wander, to play outside, sledding, etc. If I wanted to do something, she >> didn't tell me no, and she frequently pushed me to do things even when I >> didn't want to. Hide and seek was one of my favorite childhood games, >> because I've always liked small places and I liked finding unusual spots >> for me and my three brothers, (two more would come later) to hide. I >> would often wrestle with them, slide down the stairs with them on my >> back, and other assorted things, so I think its safe to say that, while >> I tended towards staying in and reading books, that I was not cut off >> from physical activity and exploration. And yet, when I was younger, I'd >> get lost even on my own block. My mother says, when I was really small, >> I even had trouble with getting off the porch. Thankfully by now I have >> progressed, (mostly,) to the point that, a lot of the time, unless I'm >> really confused, that wouldn't be an issue, but I still, for example, >> don't understand how going around a block gets you to the same point you >> started from because you turned and had to walk along streets in the >> process, and I did, just the other week, get lost going to a diner just >> a block away where I needed to cross nothing, (don't ask me how I >> managed to do that, :() Anyhow all that to say, I don't think that's >> quite where the connection is. If I had to hazard a guess, I think it >> has to do, more than anything, with how the brain is wired. Coddling or >> the lack thereof, frankly, won't fix that. >> I hope this ramble of a message has made sense, and beg pardon if it >> didn't, it has been written before breakfast by a very sleepy person. :) >> Jessica. >> >> On 7/31/2020 5:16 AM, Damien Garwood wrote: >> > Hi Chris, >> > People who have the skill of echo location are lucky - I could never >> > grasp that! >> > As for competence versus safety: If you don't use the tools you have >> > then you're not going to look competent if you end up hurting >> > yourself. Think about it, those who are prejudiced will judge you >> > regardless of how you get around, so you may as well just bite the >> > bullet. It's sad when having a disability and being able to adapt life >> > so you can attempt to live (so-called) normally, is prejudiced by >> > others, even in the 21st century. In short, it makes me sick to think >> > that a blind person doesn't want to seem or look blind because of >> > society's expectations. >> > As for physical activities, you could well be right. I wasn't really >> > the physical type of child. Even if we went out for a walk my legs >> > would hurt (but then Mum recently discovered that's likely because I'm >> > actually walking wrong). As for sports? Forget it. Put me near a gun, >> > I might be able to shoot a few rounds (yes, I did do acoustic shooting >> > a long time ago, but that was it). Put me in a swimming pool, you >> > might get thrown around and splashed a lot, but there'll be no swimming! >> > My mum didn't mollycoddle me. If anything, I don't think she ever >> > quite knew what to do with me (she was very young when I was born). My >> > mum has difficulties showing and explaining things to me even now, so >> > you can imagine how much she struggled even more so when I was a kid. >> > In fact, I always remember there were arguments between the school and >> > my mum as to who should be teaching me basic practical skills (like >> > dealing with different types of fastenings, using hooks, working out >> > which is the right way to put clothes on, handling money and so on). >> > I wouldn't agree with letting kids get cut and burned...That seems a >> > bit harsh to me. But I do agree that they should at least be allowed >> > to have a go. It doesn't help that UK's health and safety regulations >> > have gone to the dogs - soon they probably won't even let us sit on >> > chairs due to the risk that they'll snap from underneath us! >> > Now even I didn't realise hide and seek was a game that blind people >> > could play. Then again, I never had brothers or sisters until I went >> > to boarding school, and I never had friends as a young child, so that >> > would have been out of the question anyway. >> > Sounds like you had a lot of fun. All those games actually sound >> > really awesome, and are games that I would have never even dreamt of >> > doing. Just goes to show what's possible with the right support >> > network! Bet you're going to tell me you even had a go at writing and >> > drawing and painting next! >> > As for the last part of your message, yup, I fit all three of those >> > brackets, unfortunately. It took me seven years (yes, you read that >> > correctly, seven) to learn how to use a touchscreen phone because of >> > my fine motor skills (or lack thereof). >> > Cheers, >> > Damien. >> > >> > On 31/07/2020 09:31 am, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I hear what you're saying about your friend who couldn't find stuff >> >> too well. I used to laugh at blind folks using echo location. Now I'm >> >> a bit older, and don't care as much what people think of me, I >> >> cheerily exchange looking competent for feeling safer. >> >> >> >> In my experience - both through people I know, and people I work with >> >> - the main difference between people who can mental map "well", and >> >> those who can "not so well", seems to be the level and complexities >> >> of physical activities they performed when younger. >> >> >> >> For adults, this seems to be more how bloody minded they are: Those >> >> who approach their new found blindness as a challenge tend to get out >> >> there fairly quickly, and take the knocks while they haven't had the >> >> chance to think through how awful things could be. Those who sit back >> >> and worry about it tend to have worried themselves into a frenzy by >> >> the time it becomes necessary to get up and actually do something. In >> >> my experience, it's that latter group who struggle. >> >> >> >> If any of you have kids, I beg you to not be like the parents I have >> >> to work with, who mollycoddle their kids. Be that parent who lets >> >> their kids climb trees, build fires, and run around with their mates. >> >> Show them how to use tools like knives and drills. Let them get cut, >> >> and burnt and gather blisters. Seriously, so many people tell me how >> >> amazing I am. I don't see it personally, I just think I had normal >> >> parents who weren't afraid to let me take the knocks, but it's a >> >> parenting style I see less and less these days. >> >> >> >> When I was younger, I used to play hide and seek with my sighted >> >> sister and her friends. The learning went both ways: I learnt that I >> >> couldn't just stand quietly in the centre of a room, and they learnt >> >> that they couldn't just stand in front of me and stay still. Mutual >> >> respect earnt and gained. >> >> >> >> If you want games, hide and seek has to be natures best way of >> >> teaching blind and sighted kids a whole multitude of stuff: How to >> >> move quietly, what materials are transparent, and which ones only >> >> show shadows, how much noise a still body makes, how big a space you >> >> can fit your body in. >> >> >> >> Sadly, I think in this modern world of liability, correct speaking, >> >> and buck-passing, it's far easier to shove kids into a corner and let >> >> them play a computer game than to invent something amazing. >> >> >> >> If you're looking for an amazing experience that doesn't involve >> >> spacial awareness, shut down your computer, get yourself a >> >> tambourine, and fill it with crap. Pass it round a circle without >> >> making a noise. Every time it goes around the circle, remove a piece >> >> of stuff from it... Make sure there's balls, and pens, and anything >> >> else that will roll inside it. That will teach you to hold stuff >> >> level. A few rounds of that, and you'll not be confused as to which >> >> way you're holding your cup of tea. >> >> >> >> Seriously, kids learn from play! It's our job as gamers to make sure >> >> as many of the next generation of blind folks as possible get the >> >> best input when it really counts, before they get old enough to >> >> realise their fine motor skills are shot because they always had the >> >> more delicate things done for them, they can't find anything because >> >> they were always guided, and they have their own deficiencies lodged >> >> in their brains because everyone said "Oh, you can't do that". >> >> >> >> There endeth today's sirman! :P >> >> >> >> Take care, >> >> >> >> Chris Norman >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 05:53, Christy S <christys1...@gmail.com >> >> <mailto:christys1...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> >> Damien and others, >> >> >> >> >> >> I know I'm behind on this. I tend to skip over a lot of posts >> >> depending >> >> on subject, but a conversation or two over the last few days got me >> >> thinking about this. >> >> >> >> >> >> First thing's first. The reason the game you mentioned said 6:00 is >> >> that >> >> many people refer to directions using the face of a clock. Not a >> >> digital >> >> one that flashes numbers, but an analog clock that has an hour and >> >> minute hand that goes around a circle. Without going into a lot of >> >> detail that will probably just confuse you, no insult at all >> >> intended >> >> there, saying an enemy is at 6:00 probably means behind you. >> >> >> >> >> >> I wanted to touch on the more generalized concept of spatial >> >> awareness, >> >> however. Many, though not all, audio games use spatial awareness >> >> as a >> >> foundation of playing the game. It wasn't until more recently that >> I >> >> realized this isn't always practical for some. In the past, the >> >> people I >> >> had run into who had poor spatial concepts or skills also had other >> >> cognitive issues and I suppose, without even realizing it, I >> >> lumped the >> >> two together in my mind. >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm one of those who have always had decent spatial awareness, or >> >> mental >> >> mapping as Damien said. In fact, I used the term mental mapping >> >> before I >> >> knew a more correct term. I've always thought the reason I could do >> >> this >> >> so well had to do with having a little sight when I was younger, >> >> thus >> >> helping my brain to develop decently in that area. But really, >> >> when I >> >> map something in my head, it's more like picturing a miniature >> >> version >> >> of the space as I understand it. For example, I can sit here on >> >> my bed >> >> in the bedroom and picture the entire layout of this apartment, >> >> including where furniture and other large items are. I can even >> >> picture >> >> the basic layout of a house I lived in over 15 years ago, and using >> >> that >> >> mentally plan how I could get from any one point to any second >> >> point, in >> >> either place. >> >> >> >> >> >> Anyway, I've recently been talking to someone I now consider a good >> >> friend, and this person struggles a lot with any kind of spatial >> >> awareness. Their general intelligence, though, is totally fine, >> >> with no >> >> other cognitive difficulties that I'm aware of. Likewise, reading >> >> Damien's message here, I don't see any hint of cognitive delays and >> >> that >> >> just confirms to me that I need to very much rethink that >> >> subconscious >> >> connection my mind has made. Unfortunately, this is common in the >> >> blind >> >> community. If a blind person isn't out walking everywhere, taking >> >> public >> >> transit all the time etc, they tend to be seen as either dumb or >> >> lazy. >> >> If a person admits they can't figure out on their own how to get >> >> to a >> >> place two blocks away, they're often met with shocked disapproval >> or >> >> worse. I mentioned to this friend that the house I used to live in >> >> had a >> >> very large, wide open kitchen as the center of the house and they >> >> just >> >> groaned. In fact, a different friend who sadly has since passed >> >> who had >> >> similar struggles and would get utterly disoriented in that >> kitchen. >> >> She >> >> could be standing by the fridge, and no matter how many times we >> had >> >> shown her before, could not figure out how to get to a bedroom >> >> that was >> >> probably 10 or 15 feet away. Looking back now, my then roommate >> >> and I >> >> could have handled that situation very differently and more >> >> gracefully. >> >> We just could not understand why she wasn't getting it. >> >> >> >> >> >> The fact is, for whatever reason, there are those who, in addition >> >> to or >> >> because of blindness, literally don't have the mental ability to >> >> understand spatial concepts. It's not that they don't want to, or >> >> that >> >> they just haven't been taught right, but their brain quite >> literally >> >> can't process that kind of information. I think there might be some >> >> connection between that and never having sight, but it also seems >> >> to be >> >> a lot more complicated than that with certain eye conditions >> >> playing a >> >> part. The best parallel I can think of us for those of us who >> >> have no >> >> memory of sight, having someone try to explain colors to us. We can >> >> memorize certain things, red is hot for example, but our brains >> >> don't >> >> have the ability to bring what that color looks like into our minds >> >> because there's no concept of vision or varying colors to build on. >> >> >> >> >> >> This sounds very similar to what you're dealing with Damien. I >> would >> >> never discourage attempting to learn, and if you can find a way >> that >> >> works for you, that is totally awesome. If you can't, though, >> please >> >> don't think that it means you are stupid or any other negative >> >> thing. It >> >> could simply be that your brain isn't wired to be able to process >> >> spatial concepts for whatever reason, and you should stick with >> >> whatever >> >> methods work for you. >> >> >> >> >> >> For those of us who do have that kind of spatial awareness, I >> really >> >> hope we can all be understanding and not wave off these types of >> >> limitations as stupidity or laziness or anything of the sort. I'm >> >> talking to myself here too. As for those that find these 3d or 2d >> >> audio >> >> games overwhelming and confusing, I hope you can find others that >> >> work >> >> for you. Side scrollers come to mind, as those generally only have >> >> forward and backward, sometimes up and down. This entire thing >> >> has me >> >> pondering ideas for emersive audio games with excellent >> >> storylines that >> >> don't require the ability to navigate as a primary skill for >> >> gameplay. >> >> >> >> >> >> Christy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 7/27/2020 1:15 PM, Damien Garwood wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> >> > This will be quite a long message, because I'm starting to >> >> realise >> >> > just how complicated spatial awareness can actually be. >> >> > This is a thing I've been struggling with for years. I only >> >> managed A >> >> > Hero's Call because following a beacon is like playing a reflex >> >> game. >> >> > It says north, you turn around until it says north. Even then >> >> though, >> >> > someone had to tell me that. I have no real understanding as >> >> to what >> >> > that means or where I'm going. In fact, during times when you >> >> can't >> >> > rely on beacons to get you places (like the goblin campsites >> >> and so >> >> > on), someone actually had to do that for me! >> >> > As for Tank Commander, if it weren't for Raul's playthrough, I >> >> would >> >> > have never beaten it. >> >> > Same in the real world, I always struggled with mobility. When I >> >> > learned a route it was a case of remembering a set of >> >> instructions. >> >> > That's why I often call it the "Bop-it dance" or the "Robot's >> >> dance". >> >> > Think about it...Walk 20, turn right, walk 10...Just a glorified >> >> > algorithm. >> >> > If someone tells me to try and do the route in reverse, I >> >> wouldn't >> >> > have a clue. >> >> > You tell me to turn right, and I can do it. You ask me what's >> >> to the >> >> > left of me, or what direction are the stairs from my front >> >> door, I'd >> >> > have no idea, without physically going there. When my mum used >> to >> >> tell >> >> > me to get out of the car and walk round the back, I wouldn't >> know >> >> what >> >> > direction that was, because once I'm out of the car my >> >> direction has >> >> > changed. And then there's the big one. If cars are moving >> >> forwards >> >> > then why do they pan left to right? Or, if I'm sat in a vehicle >> >> that's >> >> > reversing, why does it feel like it's moving forwards? What am I >> >> told? >> >> > Surprise surprise, it's to do with directions again. And they >> all >> >> have >> >> > one thing in common - it's the direction your facing. >> >> > I always thought that, although I could move in a given >> >> direction, I >> >> > always struggled when I faced a different direction to what I'm >> >> used to. >> >> > My mum disagrees, and puts it like this: I don't have any >> "mental >> >> > mapping skills". Thinking about it, I guess I can say that's >> >> accurate. >> >> > I never know where I am relative to other things, or where >> >> they are >> >> > relative to me (Unless of course I can reach out and physically >> >> touch >> >> > it). >> >> > I guess that's why I wasn't taught other forms of navigation. >> >> compass >> >> > directions are just a series of meaningless words to me. All I >> >> know is >> >> > that the compass has something to do with the sun. >> >> > And don't even get me started on the clockface...When I tried 3d >> >> > Velocity and it told me there was an enemy at 06:00, I >> >> actually went >> >> > looking in the manual for a way to check the gametime! Of course >> >> > there's nothing in there, then someone corrected me and said, >> no, >> >> it's >> >> > referencing direction, not time. As far as I know, I hit a >> >> button on >> >> > my clock or computer and it tells me the time. What on earth has >> >> that >> >> > got to do with directions? I guess the only thing I can think >> >> of is >> >> > that they say the past is behind you and the future is in >> >> > front...Headache tablets anyone? >> >> > I've also seen things like turning to 90 or 160 (they just sound >> >> like >> >> > arbitrary numbers to me). Eurofly deals with latitude >> >> longitude and >> >> > altitude. There just seems to be so much to consider with space. >> >> > I'd just say give me an x and a y coordinate. But then I've seen >> >> that >> >> > in different ways (0 0 being bottom left in some cases, and >> >> top left >> >> > in others, and then someone told me that could also refer to the >> >> > centre under some circumstances as well). Also I've had >> >> disputes in >> >> > the past as to whether the Y coordinate represents forwards and >> >> > backwards, or up and down. I always thought z was up and down, >> >> but >> >> > they'd argue that when you're talking 2d, y is up and down. But >> I >> >> > thought if you're working with 2d, you're talking about >> something >> >> > that's flat (unless of course you're playing BK3!) >> >> > Then, as if that wasn't enough, even my certainty about up and >> >> down >> >> > came into question a few months ago when I learned that the >> world >> >> was >> >> > just a big ball. In that case, people on the other side of the >> >> ball >> >> > would say that their up was our down...And then they told me the >> >> earth >> >> > is spinning, so our directions are always changing >> >> anyway...Sheesh! >> >> > Thank goodness we don't have that level of complexity in games! >> >> > Honestly. Sometimes I think I ought to have a physics degree >> >> if I'm >> >> > going to understand all this! And there was me thinking that >> >> spatial >> >> > awareness was meant to be a basic skill. >> >> > As it is, I'm determined to learn this. I've gone six or seven >> >> years >> >> > without any mobility training now because I just can't get my >> >> head >> >> > around it. Now I'm trying again, and I thought that if I can >> >> > understand how these games work, maybe it will improve my mental >> >> > mapping skills and thus my mobility training, and stop everyone >> >> > getting impatient with me and telling me what an idiot or slow >> >> learner >> >> > I am. >> >> > Cheers, >> >> > Damien. >> >> > >> >> > On 27/07/2020 04:08 pm, Luke Hewitt wrote: >> >> >> I've found myself, that practicing has actually improved my >> >> ability >> >> >> to navigate in games. >> >> >> >> >> >> When I started with shades of doom and gma tank commander, I >> was >> >> >> having trouble, and it wasn't until I thought out the physical >> >> >> spacial awareness test myself that I managed to get my head >> >> around >> >> >> the idea, since my own comprehension of space is actually >> pretty >> >> crappy. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> What I do do though, both in games and rl, is to use >> >> landmarks as >> >> >> guides, sound sources, smells, and working out what direction I >> >> have >> >> >> to go from such and such is often a good way around. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> A hero's call I can't speak about as I've yet to get into that >> >> game, >> >> >> but I know in shades of doom, using the sound sources of the >> >> >> corridors and many of the tools already provided like >> >> coordinates and >> >> >> the reminders of where I've gone before, helped considerably. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dark. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. 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