> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:brin-l- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Seeberger > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 11:40 AM > To: Killer Bs Discussion > Subject: Re: Catholicism Re: james ossuary a fake - scientists > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jon Gabriel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'Killer Bs Discussion'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 8:49 AM > Subject: RE: Catholicism Re: james ossuary a fake - scientists > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > On > > > Behalf Of John D. Giorgis > > > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 11:28 PM > > > To: Killer Bs Discussion > > > Subject: Catholicism Re: james ossuary a fake - scientists > > > > > > At 10:04 PM 6/20/2003 -0500 The Fool wrote: > > > >No I just think catholics are hyprocritical. They profess to follow > > > >christ, but it is mary for whom they worship. > > > > > > A couple questions: > > > > > > 1) How many times is Mary mentioned in the normal Catholic Mass (which > > > Catholics are obligated to attend weekly)? > > > > Interesting. I have no idea, but I'd like to know the answer and would > > appreciate your posting it. While we're at it, what about the number of > > mentions/prayers devoted to Mary during Penance, Baptism, Confirmation, > > First Communion and the Sacrament of Matrimony? What about > > Assumption/Crowning during the 'Glorious Mysteries' portion of the > > Rosary decade? > > > > > 2) How many instances of worship of Mary are included in a typical > > decade > > > of the rosary (the most common Catholic Marian devotion)? > > > > Anywhere from 3 to 10 repetitions of Hail Mary and, I believe, 1 Hail > > Holy Queen. As I mentioned above, there are also several sections of > > the decade devoted to Mary. > > > > The text of Hail Holy Queen: > > Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our > > hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: to thee do we > > send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn > > then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after > > this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O > > merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen. > > > > (Taken from http://www.webdesk.com/catholic/prayers/hailholyqueen.html) > > > > Are you saying that Mary is not also worshipped or prayed to? > > Considering all of the prayers and mentions we're discussing, I'd > > definitely disagree with that. > > And you would be wrong. > Very wrong.
I'm not Catholic (obviously!) but I've studied Catholicism (in some aspects, somewhat extensively, especially the history of the religion). I've also attended quite a few (probably hundreds of) Catholic masses -- several ex-girlfriends have been Catholic. But this is a topic I've always been rather confused about, and I appreciate your (and John's and Reggie's clarifying it.) I do have a few questions tho: > In the "One True Church"<G> Mary is not deified, but being the "Mother Of > God" she sits close at the right hand of God in heaven and has influence > as > an "Advocate". See, now this is exactly where my confusion lies. Why pray *to* her if she has not been deified? More in a minute. > What this clearly shows is the influence of the fuedal (for lack of a > better > word) society upon religion. This "Royal" meme permeates *all* christian > sects. Watch a little christian TV if you doubt me, it is repeated > endlessly > so that the meme is strongly reinforced. Well, you're referring to the "Kingdom of Heaven". This is definitely a strong JudeoChristian meme/theme. > The upshot is that Heaven is basically a large royal court. This shows > most > strongly in older Catholic doctrine where "members of the court" may be > prayed to (addressed is actually a more accurate description) to ask for > intercession on someones behalf. > Mary and the saints are not "worshiped" even though they are prayed too. > Any claim to the contrary is to say that catholicism is multi-theistic. > what > would that then say about protestantism which sprang out of catholicism? > Please explain exactly what you mean by worship, because now I don't think we're on the same page. If someone is prayed to, how is that not an act of worship? Before you answer that, let me try to parse this out: IOW, You're saying that Mary is prayed to because she has access to God? That she might 'have His ear' so to speak? So she's not really worshipped, but merely acts as a 'prayer conduit'? Then prayers to Mary are really requests that she might act as an advocate with God on our behalf? Do I understand correctly? > > > > > > >They profess to adhere to > > > >the bible > > > > > > I have never heard a Catholic profess this, and neither the word nor > > the > > > conept of the "Bible" never appears in the Catholic Profession of > > Faith, > > > nor in the Catholic baptismal promises. > > > > > > > Really? So why do you read it and say prayers from it? What purpose > > does the Catholic bible serve and what is its value? > > While protestants have the bible and only the bible, catholics have a much > broader and richer heratige of written literature. There is quite a bit of > "apochryphia" that influences catholic thinking, but to truely understand > this, one must consider the origins of the book we call the Bible. Judaism is also like this. I think it's what the two religions have most in common. > > The meme that claims the Bible as the only source of christian truth is a > protestant myth that totally ignores the truth of the Bibles origins. > I have a number of Baptist (bible-literalist) and Protestant friends who would just *freak* over this statement. I'll therefore take it as a Catholic view and not a Christian one. > > > > > A side question. Why is it that Mary is always seen in a glass window or > > something? Why not Jesus? > > You have never ever been inside a catholic church have you? > Visit a catholic church or two and rid yourself of such silly > misunderstandings. I'm asking a serious question, and if I've offended you, my apologies. That was not my intention. I don't think the question can be invalidated as a 'silly misunderstanding' when hundreds of obviously religious Catholics travel to pray before these images when they (infrequently) appear all over the world. Why do people pray to them if Mary has not been deified? Why is it that we see/hear about images of Mary all the time, but never ones of Jesus? > You really have a lot to learn of the rich culture of the catholic church. > You're probably right. I'd be the last person to deny it. :) But I ask questions not to offend, but to learn. > > > > > http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/0612virgin-sighting12-ON.html > > > > According to the article, these people believe they are 'communicating' > > their prayers to Mary. > > And your point is? > Let me know if you need me to clarify further. I'd be happy to do so. > > xponent > Controversial Enough For You? Maru > rob > *Sigh* I'm not looking for controversy. I'm disagreeing with a statement JDG made to The Fool and learning something new in the explanation. Rob, Please don't take offense over this. I'm not *attacking* your beliefs. I'm trying to *clarify* them for myself. That's all. If you took anything I said as an attack, again I apologize. Jon _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
