----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Gabriel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Killer Bs Discussion'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 2:25 PM Subject: RE: Catholicism Re: james ossuary a fake - scientists
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:brin-l- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert > Seeberger > > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 11:40 AM > > To: Killer Bs Discussion > > Subject: Re: Catholicism Re: james ossuary a fake - scientists > I'm not Catholic (obviously!) but I've studied Catholicism (in some > aspects, somewhat extensively, especially the history of the religion). > I've also attended quite a few (probably hundreds of) Catholic masses -- > several ex-girlfriends have been Catholic. But this is a topic I've > always been rather confused about, and I appreciate your (and John's and > Reggie's clarifying it.) I do have a few questions tho: > > > In the "One True Church"<G> Mary is not deified, but being the "Mother > Of > > God" she sits close at the right hand of God in heaven and has > influence > > as > > an "Advocate". > > See, now this is exactly where my confusion lies. Why pray *to* her if > she has not been deified? More in a minute. Mary and the other saints are a lot like union stewards. They can get things done for you. <G> It's quite a different meme than the ones that are found in most protestant sects, but it has been with the catholic church long before the protestant reformation. I would think that it has always been easy to misunderstand and was likely one of the contributing factors that led to the reformation. > > > What this clearly shows is the influence of the fuedal (for lack of a > > better > > word) society upon religion. This "Royal" meme permeates *all* > christian > > sects. Watch a little christian TV if you doubt me, it is repeated > > endlessly > > so that the meme is strongly reinforced. > > Well, you're referring to the "Kingdom of Heaven". This is definitely a > strong JudeoChristian meme/theme. > > > The upshot is that Heaven is basically a large royal court. This shows > > most > > strongly in older Catholic doctrine where "members of the court" may > be > > prayed to (addressed is actually a more accurate description) to ask > for > > intercession on someones behalf. > > Mary and the saints are not "worshiped" even though they are prayed > too. > > Any claim to the contrary is to say that catholicism is > multi-theistic. > > what > > would that then say about protestantism which sprang out of > catholicism? > > > > Please explain exactly what you mean by worship, because now I don't > think we're on the same page. If someone is prayed to, how is that not > an act of worship? Here is where I would be in agreement with many athiests: Religion has its own internal self-consistant logic that is not in accord with the logics of the natural world. <G> My father is dead and I talk to him in my prayers. Does this mean that I accord my father the same status as God? I pray to the saints for intercession. Does this make them gods? Doctrine says no, but also implies that praying to dead people may be useful. This may be one of those old pagan carryovers that infest christianity such as Christmas. I think the simple explaination is that prayer to saints is in sort of a gray area that lies between worship and conversation (monologous as it may be). > > Before you answer that, let me try to parse this out: IOW, You're saying > that Mary is prayed to because she has access to God? That she might > 'have His ear' so to speak? So she's not really worshipped, but merely > acts as a 'prayer conduit'? Then prayers to Mary are really requests > that she might act as an advocate with God on our behalf? > > Do I understand correctly? > That is accurate enough for me. > > > > > > > > > >They profess to adhere to > > > > >the bible > > > > > > > > I have never heard a Catholic profess this, and neither the word > nor > > > the > > > > conept of the "Bible" never appears in the Catholic Profession of > > > Faith, > > > > nor in the Catholic baptismal promises. > > > > > > > > > > Really? So why do you read it and say prayers from it? What > purpose > > > does the Catholic bible serve and what is its value? > > > > While protestants have the bible and only the bible, catholics have a > much > > broader and richer heratige of written literature. There is quite a > bit of > > "apochryphia" that influences catholic thinking, but to truely > understand > > this, one must consider the origins of the book we call the Bible. > > Judaism is also like this. I think it's what the two religions have > most in common. This is one of the reasons catholicism has endured. It has stayed close to its roots in many ways. In modern times it has drifted somewhat. The abandonment of the Tridentine Mass frex. > > > > > The meme that claims the Bible as the only source of christian truth > is a > > protestant myth that totally ignores the truth of the Bibles origins. > > > > I have a number of Baptist (bible-literalist) and Protestant friends who > would just *freak* over this statement. I'll therefore take it as a > Catholic view and not a Christian one. > Let them freak. <G> Your average christian has little or no knowledge of the history of christianity. I suspect that it is a willful ignorance on the part of certain christian sects. If history were common knowledge, it would put "Literalism" into doubt. A lot of fundementalists seem to think the Bible was handed down by God complete and unabridged as if somewhere out in the world there exists a copy of the Bible written in Gods own hand. <G> > > > > > > > > A side question. Why is it that Mary is always seen in a glass > window or > > > something? Why not Jesus? > > > > You have never ever been inside a catholic church have you? > > Visit a catholic church or two and rid yourself of such silly > > misunderstandings. > > > I'm asking a serious question, and if I've offended you, my apologies. > That was not my intention. I have to apologise. I completely misunderstood your statement. I thought that you were implying that catholic churches were filled with stained glass pitures of Mary and none of Jesus. I should have guessed that was too wierd to be true! Sorry for being stupid. (Not offended, I was incredulous<G>) > > I don't think the question can be invalidated as a 'silly > misunderstanding' when hundreds of obviously religious Catholics travel > to pray before these images when they (infrequently) appear all over the > world. Why do people pray to them if Mary has not been deified? Why is > it that we see/hear about images of Mary all the time, but never ones of > Jesus? People do see Jesus. I think you have just forgotten about it. I think it also noteable that in catholicism some things are viewed differently. Protestants seem to think in terms of a binary meme where things are deified/not deified or God/not God. Catholic thought encompasses a continuum that goes something like: God - Saint - Holy - Blessed - Good - neutral - Bad - Wicked - Evil - Devil/Demonaic - Satan Even that is not strictly accurate. It really depends upon context. Maybe someone else could explain that better than I. > > > You really have a lot to learn of the rich culture of the catholic > church. > > > > You're probably right. I'd be the last person to deny it. :) But I > ask questions not to offend, but to learn. > Sheesh.....I was an altar boy when I was a kid, but I am far far from knowing all that much about the catholic church. Its just too big a subject. > > > > > > > > > http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/0612virgin-sighting12-ON.html > > > > > > According to the article, these people believe they are > 'communicating' > > > their prayers to Mary. > > > > And your point is? > > > > Let me know if you need me to clarify further. I'd be happy to do so. > Thats just more of that misunderstanding on my part. > > > > xponent > > Controversial Enough For You? Maru > > rob > > > > *Sigh* I'm not looking for controversy. I'm disagreeing with a > statement JDG made to The Fool and learning something new in the > explanation. Rob, Please don't take offense over this. I'm not > *attacking* your beliefs. I'm trying to *clarify* them for myself. > That's all. > > If you took anything I said as an attack, again I apologize. > Perish the thought! I never took offence. But I have to admit to being mystified when people don't understand such simple ideas. As an adult I've come to realize that it is fallout from a centuries old war of cultures that has been intentionally perpetrated to maximize the chasm between Catholics and Protestants. xponent Lapsed Maru rob _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
