--- Gautam Mukunda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Jan Coffey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Wasn't Marx a Jew ethnicaly?
>
> His family converted. It's certainly possible to be a
> self-hating Jew.
Oh come on! That's a stretch and you know it. I think you will agree that it
is more likely that he made the distinction you do not.
> > Were his statments about the Jewish religion and not
> > the Jewish people?
>
> One of the things that makes Judaism special is that
> you can't really distinguish the two.
I knwo a lot of friends who are very proud to be jewish, but are athiests, so
exactly how many such individuals do we need to document before it falsafise
your assertian that there is not a destinction?
> When he talks
> about the Jewish God being money he was trafficing in
> the vilest of anti-semitic stereotypes.
I personaly do not believe that stereotype, even when discussing religion.
However, he is specificaly discussing religion and therefore ideas not
ethnicity. Is it vile to have differing views from another's ideas? We may
agree that Communism is a bad idea and that the way that communist act in the
world is not benificial to a greater society, but that doesn't mean that we
think that any Rusians are bad people. There is a distinction.
> > Doesn't Marx speak poorly about nearly all
> > religions?
>
> He didn't write _On the Christian Problem_.
That is a good point, but he did write plenty that clearly showed his views
about christianity as well. It also wouldn't have been politicaly feasable
for him to have written that document at that time.
Once again, I am not agreeing with his viewpoint, and I am not "taking up for
him" in the slightest. I disagree with nearly everything he had to say. I
don't personaly like religion of any sort for me personaly, but I that
doesn't mean that I agree with his assesmnet of the Jewish faith. Please do
keep this in mind. There is a distinction even here.
> > Do you consider someone who disaproves of a religion
> > to be a racesist? Are
> > the two not distict and seperate?
>
> They can be, but in the case of Judaism, they tend not
> to be.
I disagree. The most outspoken critics of the Jewish faith are generaly Jews.
(At least in my circles). I will say that the idea that anyone who is anti
Judaism is anti jew, is a dangerous consept. There is no group which should
be beyond critisim. No matter what has happened in the past.
> Jewish is both an ethnicity and a religion -
> pretending otherwise is sophistry, to be frank.
Yes I agree. So when one speaks today about the two one must be very specific
about which one they are refering to. I am not so sure that at that time, one
_who himself was ~ethnicaly~ jewish_ would have bothered making the
distinction. It is clear in such a case that he would have been refering to
the religion.
Sophistry is such an issue here in both directions, claiming that someone who
disaproves of a religion is a raceist is just as bad.
>
> > I must read the whole thing, but from what I can
> > tell, it seems that you are
> > mixing concepts. While Marx clearly had issues with
> > all religions, he does
> > not seem to have issue with any ethnic group, and
> > therefore classifying him
> > as an anti-semite seems dogmatic in the context of
> > the converstation we were
> > having.
>
> Again, he didn't write _On the Christian Question_.
> If you want to argue that he didn't have a specific
> animus against Judaism, you're going to have to find
> similar statements against other religions in his work
> _of the same intensity and focus_. And you can't,
> because they don't exist.
That is not what I learned in school. And I think that is what everyone
learned as well. Since you are the scolar, why don't you enlighten us as to
why this well known fact is not the case. To be quite honest, I don't have
the time, or the pacience, to study the writings of someone so infuriating. I
don't know why I would have learned that Marx was an athiest if he wasn't.
Quite frankly I do not care.
But anyway you have stated enough here to make my point that people do not
make distinctions about information, they come to the expression with
pre-concieved notions about what sets of consepts automaticaly belong with
what other sets of consepts. Quite simply Dogmatism: a viewpoint or system of
ideas based on insufficiently examined premises.
> > Granted Marx had did have a bunch of whack ideas,
> > but hate for any particular
> > racial group doesn't seem to be one of them.
> >
> > Since you are so versed in the document, why don't
> > you point out where he
> > specifies anything to the contrary.
> > _________________________________________________
> > Jan William Coffey
>
> Luckily for me, Dan M. did that for me.
>
No he didn't.
> Look, Jan, you don't have to believe Marx was an
> anti-semite if you don't want to. You can argue with
> the textual evidence all you want. I think you might
> want to be a little more restrained in suggesting that
> someone doesn't know anything about a subject, though.
Once again, I didn't make ~that~ claim. You are adding far to much assumption
into your information input. Once again, making my point.
> I didn't call you on it - I was pretty confident that
> everyone on the list knows that I know my way around
> political philosophy without me waving my resume
> around. But it didn't exactly strengthen your
> argument here.
You don't get it, you are still doing ~exactly~ what I said. Personifying the
very thing I was suggesting that you were doing. I could care less if Marx
wasn't an athiest and was in favor of christianity. If that is what you are
saying, I really don't care.
ha
But you know what, an academic should not be about spinning, they should be
about truth...Even if they don't like that truth.
So, I feel like it did strengthen ~my~ arguement. But hay, who am I? I'm
nobody. So what do I know?
=====
_________________________________________________
Jan William Coffey
_________________________________________________
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