"Shit happens, deal with it."
Why does Ultimate suffer from this weird habit of being unable to approach raised issues without the defences up? Why do people think this means we didn't enjoy the tournament and how it was organised? I fear this attitude is a dangerous one and judging from some of the personal e mails I have had I would say others agree. Debate is a wonderful thing. Without it nothing progresses and people will always disagree with each other. Your points mentioned here all make sense. You are right. B tour should perhaps stay as it is. Perhaps the lottery effect is worth it if it keeps developing the sport. Excellent points that I am not particularly aware of as I am coming form a totally biased and selfish angle. I am arguing for my team so I will of course have an agenda. Saying that not sure the international team thing is relevant to development. A separate matter perhaps. But then you end it with the last line that says effectively "Shut up and get on with it". It's this attitude that bewilders me. The whole sport is based on this immense concept of on field discussion and debate and in my general experience a decent community that gets on with each other. Yet question how things are done on a serious level and you get sneered at for devaluing people's hard work. Weird. I haven't tried to say the tour was rubbish anywhere. Just was perplexed at the international thing. No need to circle the wagons. No need to fear me. I think I've received enough answers (thanks) which cover my points and I hope I've raised a point that is at least worth discussing. It seems it is. I don't need any more explanations as I'm happy I understand it now. I do think Tour should be a bit more structured but if this hinders the development angle then leave it as it is. That's fine. At least the issues are being discussed. For any developing sport that seems important to me. You may think new people to the sport bring annoying and weird questions but maybe we just see things differently. Fresh perspectives and all that. I don't know but change is not always bad. Discussing it openly definitely isn't. I'm going now. I have a really exciting confirmation form to design. Thanks. Especially to Nolan. ;) Berry7. Galahs/Huckers. ________________________________ From: ALASTAIR FINDLAY [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 August 2006 09:54 To: Dan Berry; William Parker; [email protected] Subject: RE: [BD] RE: Tour 2 The attraction of making the tour all or nothing is very attractive, as is the attraction of limiting the B-Tour to 16 teams but both proposals, at the moment, are very dangerous for the development of the game. The tour at the moment is the only meaningful way for all teams to play competitive Ultimate. Hopefully in years to come we will have more and different opportunities to play Ultimate at the level that suits the team, but until we have that in place it would be crazy to stop teams from developing by entering tours. The B-Tour is always going to be a bit of a lottery. Teams can change so much from one tournament to the next, that any pool could be a night mare pool, or conversely you could end up in the easiest pool ever. Shit happens, deal with it. ALi BU Dan Berry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: If a team does enter only one tournament then the organiser/scheduler is on a hiding to nothing. I can see that. Wherever the Wizards got ranked there would have been issues. Some idiot like me would have complained. I'm not saying that it was the only reason we had such a shocking tournament but it was a bit of a factor and it will affect our whole tour/final positions/qualifying for nationals etc etc. As we have put time and effort into getting ready for tour I do think it's a valid point to raise. We could have avoided this by just being a whole lot better. Such is life. I do think though that allowing a guest team into Tour will only serve to screw things up for the scheduler and thus also the teams who are using tour as a season long method of ranking how good they are. Sure Wizards didn't cause massive waves but had they stuck it to Ltd in that game, then you can guarantee everyone would be looking at this more closely. Just cause the Huckers are a bunch of useless, incompetent, half wits doesn't make the case less valid. "Even a blind, one armed chimp has a right to representation." - Abraham Lincoln. I agree with Will. These problems tend to arise from a team entering one tournament or dropping out late. If you did indeed make it all or nothing, then the schedule would be much easier to set. You get no one coming in and stuffing up the seeding and most of these gripes would be sorted I would think. I have no idea if this is possible but it makes more sense to me than running Brit Open with a tour event. Not knowing the ins and outs of that one, I personally think it was very lucky that more international teams didn't enter because then you'd have had about 10-20 morons like me on here. Had a "proper" team been stuffed by this seriously (more so than we were) then I could have just sat back and watched someone else (who knew what they were on about) do all this for me. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Parker Sent: 31 July 2006 18:29 To: [email protected] Subject: [BD] RE: Tour 2 I think Berry re-highlights that most of the whines and groans about the tour occur because teams enter only one tournament or drop out at the last minute. Perhaps it is time that the Tour had an enter all-or-none policy. That's what the tour is about isn't it? That's why we've moved to 3 tours - to allow space for other tournaments that the one-tournament wonder-teams can cope with. And while we're at it, we could make the tour a fixed number of teams so the schedule is simple. Of course I might just have started the debate of how to get selected to join the tour but it wouldn't be Britdisc without a recurring debate. >From what I hear, I think the answer to any question relating to "What is BritOpen X+2" comes from the fact that there is never enough decent bids for the Tour combined with volunteer organisers and uselessly organised frisbee teams. If you want a better tournament series, have a go at hosting a tournament or volunteer to collect rosters, or something. That, or start paying for dog foul collectors. Will Capt Ltd Release 1 time B Tour finalists, A Tour regulars PS While I'm at it, I thought that the amount of rubbish left behind at Eastbourne was a disgrace and I pitied what Nolan had to go through to clear up after you bunch of lazy punks. Bring the food in? Then take the wrapper out. Have some respect for tournament organisers and the places you visit. > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 16:14:32 +0100 > From: "Dan Berry" > Subject: RE: [BD] RE: Tour 2 > To: "Simon Statham" , > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Thanks for that Simon. I think you do raise some valuable points for us. > I think we weren't good enough. I'm not actually denying that. Hence my > comments to Schnell who pummeled us on Sunday morning. > > My point was more about the inclusion of international teams. I don't > understand the rules or why it happens and think it seems a bit > haphazard. It seems the group was stupidly top heavy in my opinion. We > could have sorted all this out by beating Seamus but we didn't so the > criticism you level at us is correct. I accept that. We are currently > discussing this point amongst ourselves. > > Point is, I still don't get the rules or how this all works. > > We weren't good enough to get top 8. Not after this weekend's > demonstration. But I still think the seedings played a part in how it > all worked out. Had we beaten Seamus they would have come a long way to > get top 8 and push for promotion (maybe at a later stage) and been > disappointed. So someone was likely to be put out by the seeding. Just > telling someone "to go away and be better" or some such doesn't really > address the issue. It may be true but it does what frisbee (IMO) tends > to do and sweep a point under the carpet on the grounds that losers > moan. > > Again I don't really understand the Brit Open thing. I will apologise > again for that. Your comments didn't really clear that up. Thanks for > trying though. > > If anyone can help me with the Brit Open thing that'd be grand. Next > time I need a motivational speaker I'll contact Simon. > > I'm new to this sport. I don't know the ins and outs and I don't really > care if that's annoying. Can international teams enter any tour and if > so what is different about Brit Open and any other tour event. I > remember other people out there asking these questions before the event > about how it would all work and so it appears there's other half wits > out there like me who are confused. God pity us all. I also think no > answer was given but I may be wrong (God help me if I am!). All I know > is that when we were given the schedule a lot of people on my team were > quite shocked at a team like that being seeded where they were. I > wasn't. I didn't even know who they were. I am a total frisbee mong me. > Luckily I'm not really assed. > > Off to practise harder on Clapham Common. In the bushes. In a raincoat. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Simon Statham > Sent: 31 July 2006 15:46 > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [BD] RE: Tour 2 > > It's not just because you weren't good enough then? > > You weren't 'stitched up'. If you had been good enough to get into > the top 8 then you would have beaten at least one of these teams, I > didn't see either of them cruise through all the other teams there. I > don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that either of them even got to > the final - so you weren't good enough, get over it. > > Go back, practice harder, get better and then you'll be fine... > > Dan Berry wrote: > Can we not have a really really talented bunch of Ultimate Wizards > from > Switzerland in our group next time as well please? > > I'm talking about the B tour. > > Having worked really hard to prepare for this tour, the Lucky Huckers > got a bit stitched up (again) by finding themselves in a group with > Seamus Murphy (8th seeds) and Wizards (23rd seed). A veritable group of > death. Wizards were clearly a bit useful and it soon transpired that > ourselves and Murphy would have to battle it out for 2nd spot and the > chance for a crossover into the top 8. > > Murphy themselves mentioned after our game that it seemed a bit unfair > that one team would end up missing out because a team clearly not ranked > correctly attended as a guest team. They were just slotted in at 23rd > when they were an experienced and capable outfit and so the seedings > were laughable. It meant one team would always get shafted. Not > particularly through a team improving lots since the last tout but just > from obvious bad planning. > > I imagine this is a difficult problem to overcome if a team only enters > one tour a year etc but did Wizards attend because this tour was coupled > with Brit Open? I'm new to all this so I don't understand how it works > but why invite international teams to a tour event that (I thought) was > designed to rank GB (and Ireland) teams before nationals. Correct me if > I'm wrong. I don't really know. Why not then invite international teams > to a separate event to play the best of British (and Irish!) after? Why > invite them in the middle? > > Just seems stupid to me. Wizards were really cool to play against and > it's great to get international teams involved but is this the right > place to do it? You stitch up any team that gets them in their group. > Our weekend was over by Saturday evening really. Ok, so we're only B > tour, who cares etc etc but we still went with aims of working our way > towards A tour. Yeah we enjoyed the party and our games on Sunday, they > were great, but when you set yourselves a goal and it gets taken away > from you in this way it kind of takes the motivation out of everyone. So > we just got absolutely bulldozered at the party and wondered who picked > techno/gabba as party music. ;) > > Apart from that it was cool. Special mention to Scnell Ja (sp?) who > stuck it to us hard Sunday morning. Fair play. > > See you all at Cardiff. > > Berry78. > > Lucky Huckers. > > (My views only but the rest of the team can't read so they will never > know if I said something wrong anyway.) > __________________________________________________ BritDisc mailing list [email protected] http://mailman.ranulf.net/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/informed.asp __________________________________________________ BritDisc mailing list [email protected] http://mailman.ranulf.net/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/informed.asp ________________________________ All new Yahoo! 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