Hi Tom, You've obviously got enough experience sailing to know more than the basics of sail trim. I don't "know-it-all", but I can handle a C27 in windy conditions. I'm not as good in light winds, but I'm used to sailing in high winds. I don't race, but anybody who sails San Francisco Bay better be competent to handle high winds and gusts. I'm not sure what's going on with what you describe. It would be cool if I could try sailing your boat, and feeling/seeing for myself... I'll go out on a limb and take a wild-a** guess at what's going on... and invite anybody to jump in to this discussion and add to it (or correct any errors I make). I'm starting to think that you're trying to canvas her like a standard rig C27 or a fractional rig. The tall rig is a different kind of lady. She's tall and skinny and easy to overpower her. Perhaps she's over canvassed with that 135%. It's very easy to overpower the tall rig. ********Disclaimer: I am a lousey proof-reader. If some I write seems obviously incorrect, it probably it!! Here goes: What you are describing reminds me of a couple of times I have sailed in 15 knots of true wind and I was too lazy to reef the 135. (That's really lazy - she's got a very nice Harken roller furler on her). I distinctly remember one occassion the first year I had the boat where we did that just for laughs. We were heeling so much we dumped everything on the floor in the cabin. We spent the afternoon on our ears until I reefed. I gave the tiller to my friend Peter who's much more of a gorilla than I am. He sailed her with the tiller pulled upwind so that the end of it was almost over the seats! She was slow as heck and on her ear the whole time. I keep the 95% up all spring, summer and fall (our windy season). I use only use the genoa in the winter, when we have really light winds, typcially 0-10 kts. If I've got the 135% up, and it blows over 10 or 12 knot of true wind, I typically reef the 135 to under 100% when beating upwind. On the tall rigs like yours and mine, that foretriangle is huge. The 135 on a tall rig handles like a 150% or bigger on a standard rig. It moves the center of effort quite a bit aft compared to my 95%. Unless you've got rail meat to hold her down, you don't want that much sail when beating upwind in 15 knots true wind (that's like 20kt apparent). When sailing upwind in steady 10-15 kt conditions, I can hold course upwind with a gentle effort. Maybe two fingers is an exaggeration, but not by much. If not two fingers, then maybe three fingers is all it takes, until a gust hits. Even when a gust hits, I don't have to wrestle, I can tighten my grip a little and pull up a little bit by leaning back a little harder. I can trim my sails to hold the course with the tiller about 3-5 degrees above centerline. (I've got arthritis. I would not be able to sail a whole day if I had to use a "death grip") (The tiller is about 5 feet long, and it's about 3-5 inches above centerline - if I have to hold it higher than that, she's overcanvassed or trimmed wrong). There is virtually NO rake in the mast on my tall rig. You can see how vertical her mast is compared to others at the dock -- in comparison, it looks like mine is tilted forward, but I assure you, it's not, especially with a couple of people in the cockpit. The standard rig is designed to sail with 100% jib and 100% mainsail in up to 15 knots without needing rail meat to hold her down to under 20 degrees of heel. My tall rig can carry the 95% and 100% mainsail in up to 15 knots. When beating upwind and slightly overpowered, I'm going to use "excess" twist in both sails to handle the gusts, keep the backstay tight to keep the jib from being overpowered. I'm going to feel the tiller pressure and the increase of heel to tell me how much to feather up in the gusts as the apparent wind moves aft. As she accelrates and the apparent wind moves forward again, and heel decreases, I'll let her find her way and feather back downwind. Make sure you have a tight forestay when beating upwind. If the forestay is sagging in the gusts, the belly of the jib gets deeper, which makes the jib more powerful and over powers the boat and heels and she wants to round up.
One more thing -- it's a long shot, but... Does it feel the same on both port and starboard tack? If so, I'd check the rudder for asymmetry, or warpage or a bent post (after checking the rig for symmetry). And those old-fashioned barn-door rudders on the C27's have no balance area in front of the post, so they do tend to amplify the Sorry, if this is email has been kiinda disorganized. It's all off the top of my head. And I hope I didn't get confused and say something bass-akwards (apparent wind, true wind, arrghhh. It's mentally confusing before two cups of coffee. My tiller hand is smarter than my brain!) Judy 1977 C27 Tall Rig #3459, "bijou", (Atomic 4, traditional interior) San Francisco Bay, CA PS. I don't think you can blame the handlinng difficulties on the old fashioned rudder design. Before I got a Booth rudder on Bijou, she sailed more than acceptably well with good sails, good trim, and a proper rig tune PPS. I replaced the rudder because she had horrible manners under in board power in forward. Iwth the old rudder, it required constant effort to keep her tracking. She would yaw sharply to port and I needed a gorrilla to control her under power. I couldn't handle it, at 110 pounds, 5'5". I discussed the "under power problem" with Jim Antrim, http://www.antrimdesign.com/ and he was kind enough to teach me some interesting things about how those old snub-nosed foils under power. He recommended the booth rudder as an affordable replacement. He said it wasn't perfect, but it didn't cost me $2000 to design either. ----- Original Message ---- From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 7:08:07 AM Subject: RE: catalina27-talk: Yesterdays sail -- 2 fingers on tiller All ... More info ......... 1. I don't think it's sail trim. On the wind in pretty steady conditions such that we can discount gusts for sake of discussion, at a measured 15 degrees of heel; a relatively new 135 up, led, and sheeted, and the boat pointing correctly, such that all three sets of telltails are laying flat or occasionally ticking to windward (top first); and a main with a boom positioned on the centerline and the sheet tensioned such that the telltails on the battons are all flying straight out (or the top one falling off occasionally), I have to use arm strength, not "two fingers", to keep the boat from turning into the wind. I couldn't tell you how many degrees of rudder I have to apply, but my point is that it is taking constant pressure to hold the boat on course, which is NOT how some of you have described a properly tuned rig at 15 degrees of heel. 2. Each fall, I have to take the tension off the rig when it comes out of the water (lift requires me to remove the forestay), so I have to retune each spring. And I like the tension off the rig in the winter anyway. Per recommendations on this list when I first got the boat, I started by positioning the mast such that the main halyard intersected the boom about six inches back from the mast, and then tensioning the rig from there. In an effort to reduce my weather helm, I've been moving the mast top forward an inch at a time until, as I said before, the mast is standing straight up ... the main halyard intersects the boom right at the base of the mast. Thus I have moved the center of effort pretty far forward. The problem is somewhat better but not gone. So ................. when I read a respected sailer, Judy, talks about two fingers on San Francisco Bay, and I read on this board and others about boats sailing merrily along being gently guided by their captains, I get frustrated. Yes, I can deal with the problem by dumping the travellor or otherwise triming to move the center of effort forward, but it seems to me that I ought to be able to tune the boat such that in 10-12 with a 135/main she is properly balanced without doing so. Maybe I'm just being unrealistic, but I don't think so. I've trimed and helmed other boats in such conditions that have had an almost neutral helm. Thus, my question to Judy. Hope all that helps. Tom "Joe McCary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [email protected] 07/25/2008 12:12 AM Please respond to [email protected] To <[email protected]> cc Subject RE: catalina27-talk: Yesterdays sail -- 2 fingers on tiller Good point! We need to know as the wind builds do you need to push the tiller up wind or downwind to keep her tracking? If you release the tiller which direction does the boat go, head into the wind or turn to run off the wind? The correction for helm is mast rake and a little goes a long way on a well designed boat. Did you make any changes to the mast position or has it always been the same and the handling as wind increases the same? Joe McCary Aeolus II, West River, MD [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Shaddock …But you say you’re dragging a tiller through the water, which seems to me you’re fighting a lee helm and turning the rudder to keep from bearing off, not a weather helm—and if that’s the case, and your mast is vertical, you’ve moved your center of effort forward instead of aft where you want it.
