Re: catalina27-talk: Yesterdays sail -- 2 fingers on tiller

[twmonroe]

All ...

 

I'm tacking my response on to Phil's here, but thank you all for your comments.

 

1. Tim has a point ... 135 is virtually new, but the main is older than a rock. Yes, it's sailed like this since I got her, but it's always had the old main. Hopefully, the budget will let me replace it this winter. It's so baggy that the outhaul and cunnigham have little effect. Sure is nice and soft and easy to handle though  :-)

 

2. I guess I really need to just resign myself to sailing this boat flatter than I have others.

 

3. I don't have a knotmeter or a GPS ... gonna borrow a GPS next weekend and do some experiments standing the boat up ... that is, if August winds which are either all or nothing will cooperate.

 

All this is not to say that Different Drummer isn't a great boat. I really love her and can usually point and foot nicely against "informal" competition on the lake. I'm just have a tinker's heart and am always thinking and fooling around with her.

 

Tom

 

 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -----

To: <catalina27-talk@memberclicks.com>
From: "Philip Agur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: catalina27-talk@memberclicks.com
Date: 07/25/2008 12:09PM
Subject: Re: catalina27-talk: Yesterdays sail -- 2 fingers on tiller

Tom,

 

This is a case of flat is fast. My rule of thumb for Catalina's has always been you sail with windward side of the companion way level. If it goes beyond level you need to depower sail. (Of course if you want a dream boat to sail you get a C270, Wing Tip holds course so well with a locked rudder her autohelm is an annoyance.)

 

C270 plug aside, what kind of backstay adjuster do you have? 

 

The instructions for rig tuning always reads the same but you don't have to get there in the same manner. I like standing the mast very vertical and hauling the tip back with an aggressive back stay adjuster. I know it sounds like if you’re doing the same think why bother but there's some subtle differences in results. The boat is always sailing in apparent wind not true wind so the wind is always strongest going to weather. That means sails need to be trimmed flatter going to weather every time and fuller off the wind. While the outhaul and Cunningham play a big role using the backstay adjuster to curve the mast will flatten the mid portion of the sail as it moves the center of effort forward. It also brings the tip back and improves the pointing angle, as does the prescribed 6" inch mast rake you mentioned. We had one race boat so dialed we could pull in lee helm. I'll agree that's undesirable but you pass through neutral helm on the way to lee and that is desirable.

 

BTW this was a C22 and Catalina Direct sells reinforced tiller handle plates because the stock plates get bent so often, but it is really a sail trim issue and once you get it you wonder why you ever needed the stiffer side plates.  

 

Even with that particular race boat we sailed her relatively flat, even though we could set the helm to neutral, because setting sails to put the winches awash is slow. Although washing the winches is a good way to temper new race crew.

 

As you know Wing Tip has a trailer and I raise and lower the mast by myself. One of the key modifications I made to Wing Tip was to change out her split bridle backstay adjuster for a 16:1 double cascade adjuster. Besides getting better sail control this allow me to let out past normal to let the forestay go limp when I'm rigging the boat. This lets me leave the forestay's length permanently set. Since the turnbuckle is under a furler drum it is a big timesaver when it comes to getting tuned up again. I put a stopper knot in the line to the blocks that has to be removed to fully relax the backstay so this doesn't happen under load and a sharpie band on the line where the knot belongs.

 

Phil Agur

 

 

-- Original Message -----

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: catalina27-talk@memberclicks.com

Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 7:08 AM

Subject: RE: catalina27-talk: Yesterdays sail -- 2 fingers on tiller

All ...

More info .........

1. I don't think it's sail trim. On the wind in pretty steady conditions such that we can discount gusts for sake of discussion, at a measured 15 degrees of heel; a relatively new 135 up, led, and sheeted, and the boat pointing correctly, such that all three sets of telltails are laying flat or occasionally ticking to windward (top first); and a main with a boom positioned on the centerline and the sheet tensioned such that the telltails on the battons are all flying straight out (or the top one falling off occasionally), I have to use arm strength, not "two fingers", to keep the boat from turning into the wind. I couldn't tell you how many degrees of rudder I have to apply, but my point is that it is taking constant pressure to hold the boat on course, which is NOT how some of you have described a properly tuned rig at 15 degrees of heel.

2. Each fall, I have to take the tension off the rig when it comes out of the water (lift requires me to remove the forestay), so I have to retune each spring. And I like the tension off the rig in the winter anyway. Per recommendations on this list when I first got the boat, I started by positioning the mast such that the main halyard intersected the boom about six inches back from the mast, and then tensioning the rig from there. In an effort to reduce my weather helm, I've been moving the mast top forward an inch at a time until, as I said before, the mast is standing straight up ... the main halyard intersects the boom right at the base of the mast. Thus I have moved the center of effort pretty far forward. The problem is somewhat better but not gone.

So ................. when I read a respected sailer, Judy, talks about two fingers on San Francisco Bay, and I read on this board and others about boats sailing merrily along being gently guided by their captains, I get frustrated. Yes, I can deal with the problem by dumping the travellor or otherwise triming to move the center of effort forward, but it seems to me that I ought to be able to tune the boat such that in 10-12 with a 135/main she is properly balanced without doing so. Maybe I'm just being unrealistic, but I don't think so. I've trimed and helmed other boats in such conditions that have had an almost neutral helm.

Thus, my question to Judy. Hope all that helps.

Tom

"Joe McCary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: catalina27-talk@memberclicks.com 07/25/2008 12:12 AM Please respond to catalina27-talk@memberclicks.com

To <catalina27-talk@memberclicks.com> cc   Subject RE: catalina27-talk: Yesterdays sail -- 2 fingers on tiller

Good point!  We need to know as the wind builds do you need to push the tiller up wind or downwind to keep her tracking?  If you release the tiller which direction does the boat go, head into the wind or turn to run off the wind?  The correction for helm is mast rake and a little goes a long way on a well designed boat.  Did you make any changes to the mast position or has it always been the same and the handling as wind increases the same?
 
 
Joe McCary
Aeolus II, West River, MD
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
On Behalf Of David Shaddock

…But you say you’re dragging a tiller through the water, which seems to me you’re fighting a lee helm and turning the rudder to keep from bearing off, not a weather helm—and if that’s the case, and your mast is vertical, you’ve moved your center of effort forward instead of aft where you want it.