I'd say two Israelis and an American but it's close. One Palestinian boy killed. A few beat up pretty good.
Both of these were criminal matters until Hamas, a member of the coalition government of the PA decided to start lobbing missiles into Israel. I'm having a hard time with the logic some people have here. Pacifists become subjects. Is there a moral authority to ever do violence? On Jul 15, 2014 12:42 PM, "GMoney" <gm0n3...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Are these the facts? > > - some private Palestinian citizens killed 3 private Israeli citizens > - in retaliation, 3 private Israeli citizens murdered 3 (or was it more?) > palestinians in particularly gruesome fashion > - in retaliation for that, Hamas...which is PART OF THE RULING GOVERNMENT, > began launching missiles randomly into Israel. > - in retaliation for that, Israel began targeting the sources of those > missiles. In doing so, they gave advanced warning of the area for their > attacks. > - in response to that warning, Hamas ordered citizens either into those > areas, or to stay put if they were already there. > > And now we are wondering who is at fault for what in all this? > > Do I have this right? > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Scott Stroz <boyz...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > No. I am talking about responsibility. > > > > Seems a lot of people are willing to give Israel a pass because the other > > guy made them do it. > > > > If Judah insults my wife and I tell him if he does not stop I will punch > > him in the face and he continues and I punch him in the face, am I not > > still responsible for my actions? Of course I am. Was I justified in > them? > > Some might say yes, some might say no - but, justified or not, I am > > responsible for my actions. Same goes for Israel and Hamas - and every > > other country in the world. > > > > My overall point was, just because Israel warned the Palestinians what > > would happen doesn't mean they are not responsible for any civilian > deaths > > - as some seemed to indicating. > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 12:31 PM, Jerry Milo Johnson <jmi...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > As with most things, I don't see it so cut-and-dry. > > > > > > You are not really talking "responsibility", you are talking "moral > > > culpability" I believe. > > > > > > And I don't think it falls on any one group. > > > > > > Israel is culpable for firing the weapon. And for allowing the > situation > > to > > > sink to the point they have to. > > > Hamas is culpable for "forcing" Israel to fire, knowing full well the > > > consequences of their actions. > > > The civilians who elected Hamas are culpable for making terrorists > their > > > elected government, knowing full well the type of government to expect. > > > The civilians who allow rocket launchers on their apartment rooftops > are > > > culpable. > > > Iran and Syria and China are culpable for arming Hamas with rockets. > > > The Arab countries are responsible for forcing the Palestinians into > > those > > > camps, and using them as pawns. > > > Egypt is culpable for keeping the Gaza borders locked down. > > > America is culpable for arming Israel. And for not forcing a better > > > solution 10 years ago. and 20. and 40. > > > > > > There are degrees of culpability. > > > > > > But I guess here is my bottom line (that these talks have helped me > > > solidify). > > > > > > There is no excuse or reason for Hamas to fire rockets into Israel. > None. > > > Zero. Not helping their cause, not helping their people, not helping > > their > > > military objectives. The ONLY point for them to fire is to force a > > response > > > from Israel, causing destruction and death to their own people, and > then > > > crying foul. > > > > > > They are the Suarez of the Middle East. Ow! Hit hit my mouth! > > > > > > All else flows from those rockets. > > > > > > And nothing else good will come to them while that is their only > tactic. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Scott Stroz <boyz...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hamas would be responsible for any deaths from those missiles. > > > > > > > > Israel would be responsible for any deaths resulting from any counter > > > > attacks. > > > > > > > > As I mentioned to Sam, I think you guys are conflating the words > > > > 'responsible' and 'justified'. > > > > > > > > I am not talking about whether any of these actions is justified, > > rather, > > > > who is responsible for the deaths. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 10:06 AM, LRS Scout <lrssc...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So over night the Israelis took part in a cease fire organized by > > > Egypt. > > > > > > > > > > Hamas chose not to take part and fired 50 additional missiles > > > > > On Jul 15, 2014 9:56 AM, "Sam" <sammyc...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you're going to analogize, at least put it in perspective. > > > > > > Let's say ranchers in CA, TX and AZ constantly fired missiles > into > > > > > > Mexico every day. Mexico tells the US government to make them > stop > > or > > > > > > they will fire back and the US did nothing. Then, Mexico called, > > > > > > emailed, texted and dropped leaflets to the houses, churches and > > > > > > schools that were firing the missiles explaining when and where > the > > > > > > bombs would land. If the ranchers rallied more people to go to > the > > > > > > target sites to die for the cause than that's on the ranchers and > > the > > > > > > people that showed up at the scheduled time. Unless Mexico went > to > > > the > > > > > > sites and checked, how would they know if civilians were there? > > Then > > > > > > you have to say to yourself, if these people are willing to die > to > > > > > > send a message, they are probably willing to strap a bomb on and > go > > > to > > > > > > a crowded market so good riddance. But no, the Mexican government > > > > > > sends more notices pleading people to leave the targets at the > > given > > > > > > times, they use more precise weapons to limit casualties and they > > > > > > still get called the terrorist. It's called propaganda and you > are > > > > > > buying into it. > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Scott Stroz <boyz...@gmail.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK..so if Mexico launched an attack on the White House and > > > civilians > > > > > that > > > > > > > lived or worked near the intended target died, Mexico would be > > > > absolved > > > > > > of > > > > > > > those deaths as long as they warned us ahead of time? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, sorry, but they are still 'people'. maybe not people we > > like, > > > > but > > > > > > > people nonetheless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, absolutely befuddled this is coming from you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/message.cfm/messageid:371558 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/unsubscribe.cfm
