Ok,
Here's how I see it. I lived in Canada for a while. My father was a
government contractor working on the CF-18 project at CFB Cold Lake, an Air
force base in northern Alberta. I had to move there, I was to young to have
a say, and I wasn't yet active in politics anyway.
I would not live there now, even if the economic situation was much better
than it is here. I cannot think of any reason I would live there again,
unless I had to due to my military obligation. Why? Because it is a
socialist nation. The people there do not have true natural rights. The
rights of Canada's citizens are handed down by the government. The idea
that people have natural rights (self determination, self defense, self
reliance) while broadly held, is not n place in that country. For example
look at how it is now a felony to posses any pistol, unless your a law
enforcement officer. I know about GST and all the taxes, socialized health
care, the Quebec problem, the Native problem. I would not move there
because I do not like the way it is run.
I will stay here, and work at making my birthplace better. I mean don't
you feel like a traitor kinda? Giving up your citizenship and all? By that
I really didn't mean to insult you, I just guess I don't understand how you
could ever do that. You were a military man as well weren't you? Was it
patriotism, or just a job? A convenient way to pay for school?
I know many people don't understand where I am coming from. That's ok.
It's still a free country (sorta).
This statement was made in another response:
Also, saying why come here if you don't like everything about the country,
is like saying leave if you don't like everything about the country. That's
just not democratic at worst, and at the very least will lead to
conservative, never changing politics.
1. saying why come here if you don't like everything about the country, is
like saying leave if you don't like everything about the country
Me: I don't see how they are saying the same thing at all. They are saying
very different things.
2. That's just not democratic at worst, and at the very least will lead to
conservative, never changing politics.
I don't know where you got the idea we are supposed to be a "democracy"
from. Well sure I do, public schools that are teaching a very liberal
agenda.
Here's the facts. We were meant to be a constitutional republic. A
democracy is a system of government where every man gets a vote on each
issue. That is not how our system works. To begin with our system
originally required you to own a substantial amount of property in order to
vote. This made sure that the people who voted were invested in the system,
and would take the time, and do the research necessary to be a good citizen.
Second. We practice representative government. We elect a rep, and that
rep votes on the issues, that is very different from a democracy, where we
would be voting on things all the time.
Third our constitution provides for a system by which changes can be made.
The only way is through amendment to the constitution. Now our high court
has time and again showed an amazing amount of disregard for the English
language, and ruled in many ways that seem counter to the intent of the
constitution.
The statement:
and at the very least will lead to conservative, never changing politics.
Is simply not true. It would lead to very conservative, slowly changing
politics. The founding fathers did not want it to be easy to change our
political system. they wanted it to be difficult and time consuming, so
that people had to seriously consider every decision that was made, and see
if it passed the constitutional litmus test. If it did not then it was
either supposed to be legislate at the state level, or be put to the states
as an amendment.
That is how our system of government is supposed to work. Now if you can't
agree with those basic principals, then I would say you are in the wrong
place. Just the way I feel about it. I don't think any of us are going to
change our minds. Liberals will continue to ignore our laws. Conservatives
will continue to try and stop and/or reverse things. Eventually we will be
so diametrically opposed that we will have another civil war.
May take 1000 years but it'll happen.
Tim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:59 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: RE: Some people are more equal as others
>
>
> I was asked to come down here. Later I chose to stay and made a life
> commitment to this country. If I think that the government is
> wrong or if I
> disagree with something it is doing, then because I was not born here, I
> have no right not to object? So you are saying that because I am not born
> here, if the town I live in arbitrarily decides to bulldoze my
> house, I have
> no recourse?
>
> What's the difference between that sort of thinking and supporting a
> dictatorship here? Its only a matter of degree.
> larry
>
> --
> Larry C. Lyons
> ColdFusion/Web Developer
> Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer
> EBStor.com
> 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204
> Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795
> tel: (703) 393-7930
> fax: (703) 393-2659
> Web: http://www.ebstor.com
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done.
> --
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Timothy Heald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:48 AM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: RE: Some people are more equal as others
> >
> >
> > Ok,
> > So you moved to this country, with a knowledge that you
> > dislike the way
> > it's government does things. Why would you do that? I mean
> > you came here
> > from another country presumably Canada (I think you mentioned
> > something
> > along those lines once). Was the decision to originally move
> > here purely
> > economic? I guess I would ask any new immigrant 1 question
> > that I would
> > want an honest answer to. It would have to be an essay
> > question I guess.
> > Please summarize and to the best of your knowledge explain
> > the reasons for
> > and meaning of the constitution of the united states.
> >
> > I don't say if you don't like it leave. If you are
> > born here I can totally
> > understand disagreeing with the way thing are, and wanting to
> > do something
> > about it. My problem is if you aren't born here, and want to
> > change things.
> > I mean why come here in the first place, there has to be
> > something here
> > better than where ever you are coming from right?
> >
> > I have made it clear that I would like to see sweeping
> > changes made to our
> > government to see it returned to the constitutional republic
> > from whence it
> > came (I love that phrase :). However, I was born here. I
> > have served in
> > our armed forces. I vote in every election. I support
> > candidates, I write
> > letters, I sign petitions. I am proactive in regards to my
> > opinions. I am
> > not someone from the outside, who may not even understand our
> > system of
> > government, and what it means to us in both a legal and a
> > cultural sense.
> >
> > Don't leave. Just don't come in the first place unless
> > you like what you
> > see.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:33 AM
> > > To: CF-Community
> > > Subject: RE: Some people are more equal as others
> > >
> > >
> > > I am an immigrant. I am going for my citizenship later this year.
> > >
> > > to quote Isaac Dealey in response to what you imply:
> > >
> > > > And I say this:
> > > >
> > > > Just like America, if you don't like it, LEAVE!
> > > >
> > > > Just my 2 cents.
> > >
> > > I've never cared for this statement... I don't much care
> > for the US gov't,
> > > laws, policies ( foreign or domestic ) etc. but it's not
> > always as easy as
> > > "shut up or get out" ... Some of us actually would like to change
> > > the things
> > > we find troublesome or sometimes downright "wrong" about
> > the way this
> > > country operates, because we don't want to leave our
> > families, friends or
> > > homes behind to move out of the country. Even for those of
> > us who may not
> > > care to stay in the country, leaving isn't always an easy
> > thing to do
> > > either. It usually means finding a job in another country
> > or learning
> > > another language or both.
> > >
> > > We cultural critics don't present our criticisms
> > necessarily because we
> > > dislike the people here or because we think some place else
> > is better, but
> > > because we see things we feel need to change. Often we also
> > don't know how
> > > to go about changing these things we feel need to change,
> > or rather, don't
> > > have ready-made solutions, and so a lot of people see us as being
> > > "whiners"... but really we're just trying to raise
> > awareness of various
> > > things we see as problems.
> > >
> > > I do agree however that anyone who has problems with the
> > ways the list or
> > > HoF are managed ought to present their complaints in a civil and
> > > professional manner to the list or otherwise in any manner
> > to Mike in
> > > private email.
> > >
> > > Isaac Dealey
> > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer
> > >
> > > www.turnkey.to
> > > 954-776-0046
> > > --
> > >
> > > this about says it all on the topic. One can be critical of
> > something or
> > > those one may care about. Its a difficult concept to grasp.
> > deal with it.
> > >
> > > larry
> > > --
> > > Larry C. Lyons
> > > ColdFusion/Web Developer
> > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer
> > > EBStor.com
> > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204
> > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795
> > > tel: (703) 393-7930
> > > fax: (703) 393-2659
> > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com
> > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done.
> > > --
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Timothy Heald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:28 AM
> > > > To: CF-Community
> > > > Subject: RE: Some people are more equal as others
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I was speaking as relates to his past express opinions on
> > > > this list. It's
> > > > funny that as one of the people who knocks many of our
> > > > policies, he still
> > > > wants to immigrate here.
> > > >
> > > > Tim
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:05 AM
> > > > > To: CF-Community
> > > > > Subject: RE: Some people are more equal as others
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Timothy
> > > > >
> > > > > Stalin made that quote in the 1930's and has been quoted by both
> > > > > on the left
> > > > > and the right. One example is McCarthy who used it in a
> > > > speech to his
> > > > > infamous Committee on un-American Activities. All that type
> > > > of insinuation
> > > > > does is demonizes those that may think differently from
> > convention.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Larry C. Lyons
> > > > > ColdFusion/Web Developer
> > > > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer
> > > > > EBStor.com
> > > > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204
> > > > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795
> > > > > tel: (703) 393-7930
> > > > > fax: (703) 393-2659
> > > > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com
> > > > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done.
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Timothy Heald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:00 PM
> > > > > > To: CF-Community
> > > > > > Subject: RE: Some people are more equal as others
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why am I not surprised that you can quote Stalin?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Timothy Heald
> > > > > > ACP/CCFD :)
> > > > > > 910-425-9988
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Manager Fayetteville ColdFusion User Group
> > > > > > http://www.fcfug.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fusebox Advisory Committee Member
> > > > > > http://www.fusebox.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 10:04 PM
> > > > > > To: CF-Community
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Some people are more equal as others
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > William H. Bowen wrote:
> > > > > > > Of course, at the same time, the rest of the world
> > > > broke their necks
> > > > > > racing
> > > > > > > at great speeds to help out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some even broke their necks racing to help people deeper in.
> > > > > > I can think
> > > > > > of at least 4 countries (2 African and 2 European). But the
> > > > > > thought that
> > > > > > this tpe of calculation is actually made (even apart from the
> > > > > > outcome of
> > > > > > it) just doesn't feel right.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And do you know what is scary? Hearing these numbers
> > > > doesn't even make
> > > > > > me angry, just sad. Sad of what a place this world is.
> > > > Sad that when I
> > > > > > take a god look at some of the classes I follow in Uni, they
> > > > > > teach me to
> > > > > > do exactly this type of calculation. But in the end I
> > > > will just shrug
> > > > > > and go on.
> > > > > > Sometimes I wonder whether I should be disturbed by myself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jochem
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.
> > > > > > - Joseph Stalin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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