beholden despite your claim to the contrary. Article 5 of NATO wasn't an
example of why we shouldn't have attacked, just that we do fall under
international laws.
Your quoting of Article 51 of the UN beat me to the punch in pointing out
that France and Germany had neither legal or moral obligation to help us,
yet we are taking punitive actions against them.
-Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Heald, Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: Bush gives the finger to the world again
> Article 5 says:
>
> The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in
Europe
> or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and
> consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of
them,
> in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence
recognised
> by Article 51 of the Charter
> <http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/bt-un51.htm> of the United Nations,
will
> assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually
> and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary,
> including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of
> the North Atlantic area.
>
> Article 51 of the UN charter says:
>
> Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of
individual
> or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of
the
> United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to
> maintain inter- national peace and security. Measures taken by Members in
> the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported
to
> the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and
> responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take
at
> any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore
> international peace and security.
>
> So what's your argument? How do this negatively impact what we did? The
> argument for self-defense can be made. Not attack took place on European
> soil, so there was no question that France didn't HAVE to participate.
>
> I am kind of at a loss?
>
> --
> Timothy Heald
> Web Portfolio Manager
> Overseas Security Advisory Council
> U.S. Department of State
> 571.345.2319
>
> The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S.
> Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have these
> opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This e-mail
is
> unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 12:17 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: Bush gives the finger to the world again
>
>
> Hey man, good to have you back. I knew all the talk about computers and
sex
> was keeping you away. :-)
>
> So what do you think about Article V of NATO? Does that apply to us or
not?
>
> -Kevin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Heald, Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:45 AM
> Subject: RE: Bush gives the finger to the world again
>
> > Wrong answer brother. We didn't agree to be bound by it, and congress
> made
> > sure of it.
> >
> > Not to mention anything Mr.. Hiss was responsible for should be
overturned
> > as he was convicted of being a communist spy.
> >
> > The debate about even taking part in the U.N. back then was such that
the
> > U.S. allowed in no actual regulatory control over us. It is their to
> > facilitate communication, and when necessary to form alliances to bring
> > pariah nations back into the fold through force.
> >
> > We are NOT members of a one world government.
> >
> > --
> > Timothy Heald
> > Web Portfolio Manager
> > Overseas Security Advisory Council
> > U.S. Department of State
> > 571.345.2319
> >
> > The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S.
> > Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have these
> > opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This e-mail
> is
> > unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 11:44 AM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: Re: Bush gives the finger to the world again
> >
> >
> > Semantics. International law vs. domestic law. Illegal in one, possibly
> not
> > in the other. We are signatories on the United Nations Charter which is
a
> > constitution of international law. It is a treaty to which all
signatories
> > are legally bound.
> >
> > I know we like to say that the U.N. has no control over the U.S., but
when
> > the US signed that treaty we agreed to be held to that body's laws.
> >
> > -Kevin
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Heald, Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:16 AM
> > Subject: RE: Bush gives the finger to the world again
> >
> > > The U.N. has no regulatory control over the United States.
> > >
> > > We are a sovereign nation.
> > >
> > > Hence not illegal.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Timothy Heald
> > > Web Portfolio Manager
> > > Overseas Security Advisory Council
> > > U.S. Department of State
> > > 571.345.2319
> > >
> > > The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the
U.S.
> > > Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have these
> > > opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This
> > is
> > > unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:56 AM
> > > To: CF-Community
> > > Subject: Re: Bush gives the finger to the world again
> > >
> > >
> > > The UN resolution basically said that if Iraq didn't cooperate with
> > > dismantelling their WMD that we could attack. However, Iraq couldn't
> > > dismantel what they didn't have. So we trumped up evidence to show
that
> > they
> > > did. Hence the illegal.
> > >
> > > -Kevin
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Heald, Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:42 AM
> > > Subject: RE: Bush gives the finger to the world again
> > >
> > > > Tell me again how the war was illegal?
> > > >
> > > > The United Nations holds no mandate over our actions. We are still
a
> > > > sovereign nation capable of acting unilaterally.
> > > >
> > > > You might not have thought it was a good idea, but that doesn't make
> it
> > > > illegal. Now I would be forced to agree that it was
unconstitutional
> > > (read
> > > > illegal) as war was never formally declared, but for some reason we
no
> > > > longer feel bound by the constitution in this country. As most
> > mainstream
> > > > people, both left and right, believe that the constitution is a
> living,
> > > > interpreted document, you shouldn't complain about that too loudly.
> If
> > we
> > > > want to strictly follow one section of the constitution, than all
need
> > be
> > > > applied equally (Firearms laws, private property, gov't only getting
> > > > involved in those things that are specifically mentioned in the
> > > > constitution).
> > > >
> > > > Additionally why should we support the economies of nations that in
> > effect
> > > > cost lives of American soldiers? These supposed allies (whose
defense
> > we
> > > > have bled for time and again) refused to take part in the fighting,
> and
> > > have
> > > > continued to take part in the reconstruction unless we met their
> > demands.
> > > > They don't deserve our money, and make no mistake, this is our
money.
> > > >
> > > > I can't agree Kevin. We are doing nothing wrong here. We may have
> > erred
> > > in
> > > > invading. I am sure we have made many mistakes during the
occupation.
> > > Yet
> > > > we're still trying to do the right thing there, and the people that
> > > wouldn't
> > > > stand with us during the tough part shouldn't profit now that there
is
> > > money
> > > > to be made.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Timothy Heald
> > > > Web Portfolio Manager
> > > > Overseas Security Advisory Council
> > > > U.S. Department of State
> > > > 571.345.2319
> > > >
> > > > The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the
> U.S.
> > > > Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have
these
> > > > opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This
> > > is
> > > > unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:29 AM
> > > > To: CF-Community
> > > > Subject: Bush gives the finger to the world again
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Former top U.S. officials are blasting the Bush administration for
> > > reopening
> > > > a rift with Europe by excluding critics of the war from prime
> contracts
> > > for
> > > > Iraq's reconstruction.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105433,00.html
> <http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105433,00.html>
> > <http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105433,00.html>
> > > <http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105433,00.html>
> > > > <http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105433,00.html>
> > > >
> > > > "I thought we were in the process of acquiring support rather than
> > > > alienating it," former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright
(search)
> > > said.
> > > >
> > > > So let me get this straight.
> > > >
> > > > 1. Economy is bad.
> > > > 2. Find a patsy country and accuse them of something unfounded.
> > > > 3. Get called on it by other countries.
> > > > 4. Attack anyway
> > > > 5. Deny reconstruction contracts to countries that wouldn't help in
an
> > > > illegal war.
> > > >
> > > > And people are complaining? I don't get it. It looks like a perfect
> plan
> > > to
> > > > boost the economy by giving local companies big contracts.
> > > >
> > > > -Kevin
> > > > _____
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _____
> >
> >
> >
> _____
>
>
>
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