The labs were great in their time. Rather than recreate that wheel it might be worthwhile to step back and look at the issues in current light.
I think the labs structure is too restricted. I strongly favor the JHS spx approach that lets you treat any script (or any text file) as a lab. I think this is a compelling argument. Right now the spx facility is very simple but could be easily improved. Effort here might be better than on the old lab aurthor system. The other part of the solution (that would fit hand in glove with enhanced spx) is to take advantage of the fact the scripts are loaded (and spx managed) with J code. This means it is easy to make the source script much richer. I think html with custom tags is the way to go to have a single script that can be used to load an applicaton, run an spx lab, and to have a literate programming display. Lots of hand waving here, but a script that started with an <html> tag could be handled specially by various programs. Load would strip out all lines not in <code-load) tags. spx could have special treatment of other tags. Publish could do similar processing. And just showing the script in a browser would be useful. Lots of handwaving above, but I think this is the way to go. One nice thing is that it could be done in small steps with immediate benefits. For example the step to have load just handle the lines in <code-load> tags and to just treat the script as html for display would provide quite a few features. In fact, it might be best to just have html scripts that can be handled by load and spx. Maybe foo.ijs.html scripts. Note that spx is not specific to JHS. It works reasonably well in Jqt or Jconsole and could the rough edges in those environments can easily be fixed with a bit of J programming. The new release of Jd uses spx and works in all front ends. Potential lab authors are far better off to learn some html than a J specific lab authoring facility. Any interest in making the general issue of labs/literate programming/publishing the topic of a workshop at the conference in July? On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 10:23 PM, robert therriault <bobtherria...@mac.com> wrote: > Well, I am looking at it and I will keep everyone posted if I make any > progress, but I really won't feel bad if someone else wanted to take it on > (or even better join in). > > I am starting with the JHS system using Safari as my browser. Even though the > lab .ijt files are text files which any version of J would read, some of the > instructions to initiate events such as running video are dependent on the J > environment being used, so that generalization across the different > environments may be end up being a challenge. > > The first challenge is to get people to think that it is not a bad idea. :-) > > Cheers, bob > > On May 26, 2014, at 7:05 PM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Does that mean you are volunteering to do the update? >> >> ;) >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> Raul >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 8:56 PM, robert therriault >> <bobtherria...@mac.com>wrote: >> >>> Hey Raul, >>> >>> Developing a tool that can be used to create labs as they are imagined now >>> is mostly an update from the previous lab author, so most of the heavy >>> lifting has been done. The next level is to come up with what labs might >>> become; incorporating a number of communications methods that html5 makes >>> available with an interface that reduces the overhead to lab creation. I >>> would like to say it is the interface design that I find most difficult, >>> but really the biggest challenge is personal time management. :-) >>> >>> Cheers, bob >>> >>> On May 26, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Keep in mind that my "don't like video" is limited - I *would* like it >>>> under a variety of circumstances and I would not hesitate to recommend it >>>> for some purposes. >>>> >>>> I'm not trying to say it's bad or anything. But I guess I do avoid it in >>>> some contexts. >>>> >>>> Meanwhile, it can't be that hard to document the data format for labs. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Raul >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 4:36 PM, robert therriault < >>> bobtherria...@mac.com>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey Raul, >>>>> >>>>> 1) One of the advantages of scripted video is that there is a written >>>>> artefact that could be included for search purposes. Similar to the way >>>>> that SVG includes its text as searchable content as opposed to bitmaps >>> of >>>>> words on canvas. >>>>> >>>>> 2) This is a little trickier because it implicitly dives through the >>>>> levels that we interact with video. The pixelmator video example was one >>>>> that I was looking at as a viewer (because it is pretty) and as a >>> content >>>>> creator (by the way it conveyed information so efficiently). The level >>> you >>>>> are talking about is the level of the tool to create such a video or >>> image. >>>>> The reason that J doesn't have such a tool is probably because this >>> level >>>>> of UI is really difficult to get right and even when you do, the users >>> may >>>>> turn on you, such as when Apple introduced the new version of Final Cut >>>>> Pro. Also, there may not be reasons for J to manipulate video in this >>> way >>>>> when there are other tools already available, but you already referred >>> to >>>>> this when you talked of bringing other tools such as Blender. >>> Currently, I >>>>> am taking a hard look at the labs feature in J to provide this type of >>>>> glue. Amazingly, we lack a creation tool for labs in the newer versions >>> of >>>>> J and if there were a tool that would be >>>>> worth building, I think that would be it. >>>>> >>>>> 3) In signing off (and even though you don't like video) I just opened a >>>>> link to this orientation/welcoming tutorial produced by >>> processing.orgthat also has content that involves the visual aspects and >>> power of >>>>> computer programming. Might be worth a look. >>> http://hello.processing.org/ >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, bob >>>>> >>>>> On May 26, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I guess I have two thoughts looking at that: >>>>>> >>>>>> (1) I personally prefer reading over video. Video is really hard to >>> find >>>>>> using search, and it's slow to watch. >>>>>> >>>>>> (2) Why don't I know how to generate a UI like that, using J? >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course anything worth doing takes time, and I have to allow for >>> that. >>>>>> But video is particularly frustrating for me, also because I don't know >>>>> how >>>>>> to manipulate the raw underlying data in J. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Raul >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 1:23 PM, robert therriault < >>>>> bobtherria...@mac.com>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks Raul, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Another (albeit market driven) approach is the short video tutorial to >>>>>>> describe use of a specific tooll. These short tutorials for the use of >>>>>>> pixelmator software are good because they have actually provided very >>>>>>> precise instruction on use of a tool in about a minute. The amount of >>>>> time >>>>>>> required to create these tutorials is even more than writing, as it >>>>>>> includes video production, but the result is a just in time tutorial >>>>> that >>>>>>> does not feel too pedantic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.pixelmator.com/tutorials/featured/transform-tool/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, bob >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 26, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Writing decent tutorial documentation can be hard. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So here's an example of how one guy who has written a fair amount of >>>>>>>> documentation has approached things: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.xess.com/static/media/appnotes/FpgasNowWhatBook.pdf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Personally, I'm not all that fond of pdf - I personally prefer >>> working >>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> directly with the underlying medium. But everybody has to make their >>>>> own >>>>>>>> choices. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Raul >>>>>>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> For information about J forums see >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> For information about J forums see >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
