Note that you can pack a lot more information into a tool-tip (mouse-over popup than you can in a name. The ui for would, I think, also be more intuitive.
I'll see if I can throw together a demo when I've got some breathing space. Thanks, -- Raul On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 8:20 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> wrote: > I don't really like the idea of i at all: people don't have to use any > features of j they don't understand. > > I like an idea related to your words suggestion: we could have an interpreter > switch that translates the symbols to English names, as an aid for beginners. > > ________________________________ > From: Chat <chat-boun...@forums.jsoftware.com> on behalf of Jack Andrews > <effb...@gmail.com> > Sent: Friday, March 2, 2018 2:12:26 AM > To: Chat forum > Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ? > > i'm an outsider to j - coming from k (but i've spent some time with j). > > how about a simpler j - say "i", which is implemented in j but hides some > of the "harder to learn" features. > the language could have only adverbs, verbs and nouns and eliminate forks > (and conjunctions?). > it could also use words like "insert" or "over" in place of the glyph > the k style lambdas are easy to use, too. > > this might be an easier entry into j and allow people to discover j by > using i. > this is much like the k/q distinction in the kx language. > > > On 2 March 2018 at 10:51, Jose Mario Quintana <jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com >> wrote: > >> :D >> >> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 6:49 PM, Roger Hui <rogerhui.can...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > Reports of my demise are been greatly exaggerated. >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 3:02 PM, Jose Mario Quintana < >> > jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > > > Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct me if I am >> > > mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can >> > > >> > > He has been with Dyalog APL for several years (AFAIK); he still >> > contributes >> > > to the forums from time to time (although the Dyalog APL influence is >> > > noticeable sometimes). >> > > >> > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest >> > in >> > > J, I will try to explain my > understanding of the current situation, >> in >> > > the hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. >> > > >> > > There is another young person (from my perspective anyway), Marshall >> > > Lochbaum, with an impressive expertise in J and the J Source but he is >> > now >> > > (AFAIK) with... Dyalog APL! He also still contributes to the forum >> > > occasionally. >> > > >> > > I remember overhearing a bunch of world gurus a few decades ago >> > discussing, >> > > while having coffee, tea, and pastries, what needed to be done to >> advance >> > > in the long run what they believed was a superior but grossly >> > > under-utilized paradigm. What was their conclusion? It was hopeless >> to >> > > try to convince the rival professors and industry practitioners, they >> had >> > > invested too much in an alternative paradigm. However, they would >> > > eventually die; the focus should be on the younger generations. (I >> doubt >> > > the strategy was a new one.) >> > > >> > > To attract younger generations one should try to see things from their >> > > perspective. At the very least you have provided a sample. Thanks for >> > > taking the time for doing so. >> > > >> > > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:40 PM, james faure <james.fa...@epitech.eu> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current >> course, >> > > it >> > > > will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have >> abandonned J >> > > > (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch >> from >> > > > first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my >> > > friends >> > > > in J and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech >> > > > http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe >> > they >> > > > are convinced of it's power. >> > > > >> > > > Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/> >> > > > international.epitech.eu >> > > > Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to >> Epitech >> > > > and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has >> > > > solidified its reputation ... >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest >> > in >> > > > J, I will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, >> in >> > > the >> > > > hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between >> > the >> > > > time that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely >> > > unsure >> > > > about whether the language would have a future and whether it would >> be >> > > > suitable to do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is >> > the >> > > > reason I am here, without it I would probably still be wondering to >> > > myself >> > > > from time to time about J, but without the conviction that it is >> > > suitable, >> > > > or worth learning. Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to >> > be >> > > > the main place where people first hear about J nowadays. And even >> with >> > > > those conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I am >> > both >> > > > extremely determined, and was able to complete school projects with >> > > plenty >> > > > of spare time. I have shown J to many people at Epitech, but I remain >> > the >> > > > only person who uses it, most of those people never made it past the >> > > first >> > > > few steps. The learning curve has to be reduced, and it must be done >> so >> > > in >> > > > the style of this decade. As an aside, on proofreading this, some of >> my >> > > > statements are harsh, so please keep in mind they are not criticisms, >> > > more >> > > > like a plea for help on J's behalf. Also please do not think me >> > arrogant >> > > > because of my convictions. I am well aware that I am not affiliated >> > with >> > > > nor in charge of jsoftware. >> > > > >> > > > My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the >> source >> > > > forum about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of >> > optimization >> > > > for such a simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple >> times >> > > > that extended precision calculations are simply far too slow, and >> this >> > > has >> > > > even threatened my desire to continue with J by throwing some serious >> > > > doubts on it's ability to satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat >> to >> > > J's >> > > > existence is it's complete failure to keep up with modern trends: >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > 0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very difficult >> > to >> > > > make google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced to >> > > > preface every google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no doubt >> > > > sufficiently annoying to put off many people. The language must be >> > > renamed. >> > > > >> > > > 1 The website looks decades old, and it is difficult to find things. >> > Some >> > > > people I have shown J to abandonned the attempt after a bare minute >> of >> > > > visiting it. >> > > > >> > > > 2 Stack Overflow, and more generally Q&A resources are extremely >> > popular >> > > > nowadays, most people are simply too lazy to read documentation and >> > will >> > > > always try to formulate their question to google first. Should this >> > prove >> > > > unsuccessful, they are often much less motivated to continue. J has >> > > almost >> > > > no presence on SO. >> > > > >> > > > 3 The Foreign's in J and the interface to this are frankly an >> > > abherration: >> > > > nobody wants to have to learn or look up all the time how to activate >> > > this >> > > > and that foreign, and there is no reason why they shouldn't all have >> > much >> > > > more logical names. In the same vein: the o. family must be given >> > logical >> > > > names like 'cos' 'sin' etc.. The concern of polluting the namespace >> is >> > a >> > > > miniscule one. I also would urge everyone to stop using phrases like >> '2 >> > > o. >> > > > y', and '6!:2' etc.. but for that to happen, these need standard >> > default >> > > > names, even multiple aliases. Noone cares nowadays about the >> miniscule >> > > > performance loss associated with having multiple equivalent names, >> the >> > > > possibility of guessingand have it work anyway is far more important. >> > > > >> > > > 4 The SC based system has has got to go.. A modern program should >> > > > certainly not depend on strict formulation rules in order to run >> > > optimally >> > > > >> > > > 5 Information needs to be presented differently, and in a way more in >> > > > keeping with modern trends for webdesign. NuVoc is magnificent, and I >> > > very >> > > > much appreciate the significant effort that has gone into explaining >> J, >> > > but >> > > > the website's overall presentation is not good. >> > > > >> > > > 6 People nowadays are too lazy to download the qtide and try the >> labs, >> > > > (not my learning style but for sure they are valuable) >> > > > >> > > > 7 Why isn't there an online Jconsole that can be used interactively, >> on >> > > > jsoftware's frontpage ?? The closest thing I could find is the 3rd >> > party >> > > > https://tio.run/#j >> > > > >> > > > This comes back to the concept that If Newcomers are not sufficiently >> > > > hooked in within 5 seconds, you lose them forever. >> > > > >> > > > 8 There must be bulitin help in the jconsole. Even if it bloats the >> > > > binary, builtin help is obligatory for J. (something like help '/' >> > should >> > > > print some example uses of insert and a brief summary) >> > > > >> > > > 9 Error messages are incomprehensible to newcomers (why does 'Rank >> > error' >> > > > not also print the offending verb, it's rank, and the offending >> nouns + >> > > > their ranks ?) - experienced users are happy to use the debug >> > interface, >> > > > but this shouldn't be necessary. >> > > > >> > > > 10 The Jsources are written in a magnificent style, but need many >> more >> > > > explanations (I understand the jdevs are aware of this). >> > > > >> > > > 11 Developping J-otherlang communication is a good idea, but given >> the >> > > > current situation it feels like an admission of defeat. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Maybe there is no solution for J. Perhaps the timing is wrong, and it >> > > must >> > > > lie dormant, biding it's time before one day in the future rising up >> > > again, >> > > > in a new form. All we can do now is believe J is worth fighting for. >> > > > >> > > > I close this by saying I have the utmost respect for all Jers, but >> > things >> > > > must change, and radically if J is to live. >> > > > >> > > > J4 >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------- >> > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> forums.htm >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
