Hi, I've been following this discussion about the Certs vs. a College Degree and I'd like to just add something that people should really think hard about before they choose between the two, and share some of my own observations working in the current IT industry.
I don't know if everyone is aware of this, but the current trend in the U.S. high-tech industry is the ongoing and increasing trend of the exportation of IT jobs to Asia and India where workers will work for 10% of what we are paid here in the U.S. This is a pure and simple business decision, and I understand why companies are doing this, although the consequences to us here in the U.S. who now work in the IT industry is not so comforting. Just as most of the manufacturing jobs have left the U.S., the same thing is going on for IT as well. Globalization is here to stay and there's really not much we can do about this trend as corporations cross national borders and their loyalty is not towards their workers, but toward their invenstors. Competition for IT jobs is now fierce, and although not all IT jobs will leave the U.S., I do not think we will see what happened in the 90's repeat itself. In many ways, from what I've seen going on in the last couple of years, in general what you know doesn't hold as much weight as who you know in finding and keeping IT employment. I am in the networking industry now, and without mentioning the company I work for, which is a major player, we are still going through layoffs and downsizing. I honestly do not know whether I will have a job from week to week, and it isn't because my work skills are poor or lack the certs. Many of my collegues have been laid off in the last two years, had far more skills and certs than I had, and are sadly still out of work. I frankly feel quite upset that the work I do is some of the most challenging I've ever done and enjoy immensely most of the time, but the hard facts regarding the health of the IT industry in this county seems to indicate that I'm faced with another career change sooner rather than later. I don't think many of us in the IT field can be certain we will have long term careers anymore. That being said, in my opinion, the College degree is a far more valuable basis on which to build a career. Even if you get your B.S./B.A. degree in one subject, you can build on it and get a Masters in another subject if you find the industry you are in changing, or if you seek a career change at some point. This is important to remember, because the average person in today's world will end up changing careers many times in a life time as opposed to working for one company like many of our fathers did. One of the most important things to remember is that the degree you earn can never be taken away -- Cisco Certs are valid for only a few years and if you let them lapse you have to start all over again. That's not to say someone in the IT field won't continue to grow, recertify or earn newer Certs at a higher level, but those Certs will never make up for the fact that if the job you are applying for requires a college degree - which many, many of the better jobs do -- and if you don't have one, you will not even be considered for the position, even when you have industry experience. As a side note, many of us in the IT industry went into the industry with Certs, but due to the reality of our jobs taking 60 - 70 hours of our time each week, many of us have let our Certs lapse because there just is no time left at the end of the week to devote to training. I would love to have the opportunity to increase my skill set outside of what my job requires, but it isn't realistic right now. Anyway, my point in all this is to suggest to everyone that the best thing we can do to help ourselves navigate through our lives and working careers is to try and make choices that will provide us with the most options down the road, and regardless of whether you agree with the system or not, the college degree offers the most flexibility and a solid foundation in the long run, while the Certs should be seen as finite, short run solution to gaining the knowledge you need to do your job now. My two cents... >From: "Jack Nalbandian" >Reply-To: "Jack Nalbandian" >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: RE: Prolonged Batchlers Vs. CCNP ? [7:69483] >Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 00:29:56 GMT > >I still seem to be unable to get across the central point. It does not >matter what is more potent or more reliable than the other. The point is >that neither should be either undervalued or overvalued by way of unfair >propaganda and preconceptions. > >I have experienced that a college degree holder can also be as incompetent >and moronic as a non-holder, but I DO NOT go on a crusade to ridicule >college education. Nor do I discourage someone from EARNING a degree, and, >in fact, I completely agree with the idea that a bachelors degree should be >EARNED when it is most opportune: early in life when not bogged down by >life's responsbilities. > >I also, on the same exact and precise token, do not discourage people to >EARN a certification from the vendor relevant to their current position to >update their knowledge. I happen to have gained much from Cisco's program >as well as MS's due to my particular area of work: Indepedent constultant. >I don't have to prove that I have "Harvard business knowledge" when the >reality that I deal with dictates that I understand NETWORKING principles. > >It is a simple idea, and it is crucial to the welfare of each company: >Judge >each individual by their own merit as much as the situation allows and as >the situation requires. I know companies who do this, and they are run >most >efficiently. Other who do not follow such principles always suffer from >disgruntled employees. > >As to some of the points you outline (sorry I cannot get to all your points >or if I have missed any): > >1. Cisco's (and Microsoft's for that matter) example of who's on the Board >of Directors or in management in general is irrelevant to the discussion >except for the fact that they are managers, specifically managers. Those >on >the board or in management have proven themselves to be managers, while the >CCIE's are proven technicians, network engineers. There is no "Vendor cert >for management." We are, yet again, devaluing something, an orange per se, >by putting it in an apple contest. Irrelevant! > >2. I again, restate, restate and restate again that I DO NOT discourage, >nor >do I wish to unfairly discredit, discount, ridicule, nor dismiss the value >of a REAL college education. I am a college graduate as well, albeit in >the >music field, but I see the need for vendor certs (the programs themselves, >not as much the "title"). Specialization in technical areas has to be >achieved and measured in some formal manner, specially in a complex field >like networking. This is precisely the reason why I find it strange that a >certification program is under attach with such propaganda. If you EARN a >cert, truly, you will learn a lot. There is essentially little difference >in result per effort invested. > >3. I do not have "lofty ideals" from which I fly into bouts of fantasy. I >tell reality the way I have seen it, and I can assure you that vendor certs >are valued by a good number of people for what they are. College degrees >have been overrated by a great many companies who hire people for technical >positions, and these same companies, again, are the ones that suffer the >most from lack of professionalism in their ranks. For positions of upper >management (or even "middle" management), I have no argument either way, as >it is totally out of bounds of this discussion. > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 2:47 AM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: RE: Prolonged Batchlers Vs. CCNP ? [7:69483] > > >Jack, I would submit the following 2 points: > >First off, the fact is, college is on the whole proven to be a >significantly >more useful indicator of success than any cert. > >Think of Cisco itself. You would think that if any company knew the value >of the CCIE program, it would be Cisco itself. Yet of the executive >management in Cisco, how many CCIE's do you find? I believe the answer is >zero. Now how many of them are college graduates? Exactly. Case closed. > >If you don't believe, it, see for yourself: >http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/tln/exec_team/ > >Now ask yourself why is that? If certification was really so powerful than >why doesn't Chambers just fire all his executive management and replace >them >with all CCIE's? Are you saying Chambers is being deliberately stupid in >who he chooses to manage his company? If the college degree was really so >useless, then why exactly do all of Cisco's top brass seem to have one? > >The same is true for every other large company. Bill Gates is perhaps the >most famous and successful college dropouts in the world. You would think >that if anybody would know the shortcomings of the degree, it would be him. >Yet, every one of their Microsoft's top management positions is filled with >degree'd people (if you don't believe it, look it up yourself - >http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/default.asp), and usually from the >most prestigious schools in the world. Is this a coincidence? Why >doesn't >Gates just fire all his managers and replace them with dropouts like >himself? Are you saying you know more about how to run a business than >Bill >Gates? More likely, the most famous dropout in the world obviously thinks >there is some value in that degree, otherwise why would he choose to fill >his management with degree'd people? > > >Secondly, even if you don't personally think that there is value in the >degree, you conceded yourself that other people do. In particular, a lot >of >people who are in charge of hiring do. You've admitted yourself that you >would have difficulty in getting hired in the Fortune 500 because you lack >the degree and that you've lost deals to a competitor who had the >sheepskin. > >Let's face it. While it's nice to follow your ideals, sometimes a little >pragmatism needs to come into play. Sometimes you gotta do things you >don't >like and don't believe in. I, for example, think it's stupid that I have >to stop at red lights at 3 in the morning when there's nobody around, but >if >I get pulled over, am I really going to convince the cop that since there's >nobody out driving but me, I should be allowed to drive any way I want? >Heck >no. He's going to hand me a $250 ticket, and that's that. Similarly, if >HR decides that a particular position will be filled only by a person with >a >degree, then you either have that degree or you don't. You're not going to >get anywhere by arguing with them over how stupid you think that >requirement >is. They're the ones with the job, so they set the rules about who is >eligible for that job, and if you don't have what they want, then you're >not >going to get it, simple as that. > >Therefore, even if you don't personally believe in the value of the degree, >other people do and that, by itself, is a good enough reason to get it. >Railing against the requirements of corporate America won't put food on the >table. > >I'm not telling you that you should get that degree. The choice is up to >you. But what I am saying is that if you choose not to, then you should >understand that you are closing some doors to yourself, and you should >accept that fact. If you choose not to follow the 'rules' of corporate >America, then you should be prepared to accept the consequences. Just like >if I choose to run red lights at 3 in the morning, then I will have to >accept the fact that I will get ticketted. But there's no point in railing >against the rules. The rules are the rules. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=69955&t=69483 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
