So now we've moved from CCIEs to lawyers. hmmmmmm
Jonathan Hays wrote:
> Good point. However, you guys have only discussed the two extremes: no
> experience and
> the 30-years experience burnout. I'd rather hire a lawyer with 5-10 years
> experience who
> still has enthusiasm. Sometimes the new kid on the block does a great job
> and sometimes
> she or he often screws up quite a bit before learning the ropes.
>
> But these are generalizations. The particular individual is what counts.
>
> Leigh Anne Chisholm wrote:
>
> > Actually, it's likely the lawyer fresh out of lawschool will do a better
> job
> > than the cratchety old lawyer that's had a few years to become jaded by
the
> > system or to get an over-inflated view of themselves. The new kid on the
> > block has something to prove so he'll go that extra mile to do a superb
> job.
> > Did I mention I used to head up an IT division at a major Canadian law
> firm?
> > (-:
> >
> > My point is... experience doesn't always matter. Brilliance and the
> > willingness to do a good job can compensate quite well for experience.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > > Chuck Larrieu
> > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:48 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
> > >
> > >
> > > hey, Brad, aren't you the guy who was complaining on the other list
about
> > > what the one day lab would end up doing? ;->
> > >
> > > may I point out that the CPA or the State Bar, or the real estate
> broker's
> > > exam, for that matter, are very difficult, and only a small percentage
of
> > > takers pass first time through. So who do you want doing your taxes -
the
> > > guy fresh out of accounting school, or the guy with a few years
> > > experience?
> > > How about if you find yourself in court for one reason or
> > > another? Want that
> > > lawyer fresh out of law school who happened to pass the bar first try
> > > through? Hey - he's smart enough! Isn't he?
> > >
> > > and for those wondering, I deliberately avoided using real estate
broker
> > > examples because the house its up for sale, and I don't care about
> > > credentials, just as long as I get my price. Any CCIE's out there want
to
> > > come live in California?
> > >
> > > Chuck
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > > Brad Ellis
> > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:10 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
> > >
> > >
> > > Chuck,
> > >
> > > Hi! Don't get me wrong, Im not saying CCIE's sh*t don't stink!!!
> > > I know a
> > > few CCIEs that I would let touch my network. However, I consider that
> the
> > > EXCEPTION and not the RULE. As a general rule of thumb, I
> > > consider the CCIE
> > > level of knowledge and applicable skills to be higher than "minimal
> > > competence." I suppose it really depends on your definition of
"minimal
> > > competence." I define minimal competence as someone who has a
> fundamental
> > > understanding of networking with a small amount of hands-on experience.
> I
> > > would generally classify a CCIE to have a more in-depth understanding
of
> > > networking fundamentals and quite a bit more hands-on experience than
> > > someone with minimal competence.
> > >
> > > Mr. Seltzer's writing says that the average CCIE is minimally competent
> in
> > > the product (I'd guess he was referring to Cisco). I think that's like
> > > saying NBA basketball players are minimally competent basketball
players.
> > > To Michael Jordan that's probably true, but Im sure the general
> > > public would
> > > disagree. I suppose it really comes down to your definition of
"minimal
> > > competence." I have a great deal of respect for the majority of other
> > > CCIE's who I have come in contact with and consider calling them
> minimally
> > > competent to be an insult.
> > >
> > > -Brad Ellis
> > > CCIE#5796
> > >
> > > ""Chuck Larrieu"" wrote in message
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends".
> > > >
> > > > sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us.
> > > >
> > > > I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and
> > > deserving of every
> > > > dollar they get and every contract they land.
> > > >
> > > > I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet
gets
> > > from
> > > > one interface to another in a router.
> > > >
> > > > all the CCIE certification proves is that you have passed Cisco's lab
> > > test.
> > > > It does not prove one way or another whether you know jack about
> > > networking.
> > > > I suggest that there is a percentage of the 2000 or so who have
> attained
> > > the
> > > > cert since last year who did so only because they successfully
> memorized
> > > > enough scenario configurations that they were able to luck their way
> > > through
> > > > when their lab closely resembled one of those scenarios they
memorized.
> > > >
> > > > I personally know several folks who passed over the last 18 months
> whose
> > > > only hands on experience was in their practice labs. Of these, all
were
> > > > pretty sharp dudes, by the way.
> > > >
> > > > From personal experience I can tell you that I saw absolutely nothing
> in
> > > my
> > > > lab that made me wish I'd spent more time reading RFC's, or
> > > Comer, or any
> > > of
> > > > the other great books of the networking world. I saw plenty that made
> me
> > > > wish I'd spent more time on certain practice materials readily
> available
> > > ( I
> > > > refer to the commercially available products. please do not
> > > contact me for
> > > > names and sources )
> > > >
> > > > whenever this topic comes up, I see the same kinds of thought
> > > processes as
> > > I
> > > > used to see in the days when people asked what good an English
> > > degree did
> > > > you in the job market. It isn't the degree. it's the intelligence
> behind
> > > it.
> > > >
> > > > hate to say it, kids, but the CCIE has no clothes. Experience is what
> > > really
> > > > matters. the certification to many is just a ticket, just the
> beginning.
> > > to
> > > > those with a lot of experience, it is merely a validation of the
skill
> > > set.
> > > > in and of itself it is like any other piece of paper - representative
> of
> > > > something, but perhaps not representative of what you may think.
> > > >
> > > > Chuck
> > > > back to the pod - got lots to do before December 3
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf
Of
> > > > Don Claybrook
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:32 AM
> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an
> > > excerpt.
> > > > The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to
> hire
> > > > technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's
talking
> > > > about
> > > > how certifications aren't as important as one might think:
> > > >
> > > > "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a
> > > consultant's
> > > > alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as
my
> > > > political science degree doesn't make me your next President. Terms
> like
> > > > CCIE
> > > > (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful
> > > completion
> > > of
> > > > the program and minimal competence in the product."
> > > >
> > > > I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the
> > > group might
> > > > get
> > > > a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the whole
> > > thing:
> > > > http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp
> > > >
> > > > Don Claybrook
> > > > CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE)
Message Posted at:
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