hey, Brad, aren't you the guy who was complaining on the other list about
what the one day lab would end up doing? ;->
may I point out that the CPA or the State Bar, or the real estate broker's
exam, for that matter, are very difficult, and only a small percentage of
takers pass first time through. So who do you want doing your taxes - the
guy fresh out of accounting school, or the guy with a few years experience?
How about if you find yourself in court for one reason or another? Want that
lawyer fresh out of law school who happened to pass the bar first try
through? Hey - he's smart enough! Isn't he?
and for those wondering, I deliberately avoided using real estate broker
examples because the house its up for sale, and I don't care about
credentials, just as long as I get my price. Any CCIE's out there want to
come live in California?
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Brad Ellis
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:10 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
Chuck,
Hi! Don't get me wrong, Im not saying CCIE's sh*t don't stink!!! I know a
few CCIEs that I would let touch my network. However, I consider that the
EXCEPTION and not the RULE. As a general rule of thumb, I consider the CCIE
level of knowledge and applicable skills to be higher than "minimal
competence." I suppose it really depends on your definition of "minimal
competence." I define minimal competence as someone who has a fundamental
understanding of networking with a small amount of hands-on experience. I
would generally classify a CCIE to have a more in-depth understanding of
networking fundamentals and quite a bit more hands-on experience than
someone with minimal competence.
Mr. Seltzer's writing says that the average CCIE is minimally competent in
the product (I'd guess he was referring to Cisco). I think that's like
saying NBA basketball players are minimally competent basketball players.
To Michael Jordan that's probably true, but Im sure the general public would
disagree. I suppose it really comes down to your definition of "minimal
competence." I have a great deal of respect for the majority of other
CCIE's who I have come in contact with and consider calling them minimally
competent to be an insult.
-Brad Ellis
CCIE#5796
""Chuck Larrieu"" wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends".
>
> sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us.
>
> I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and deserving of every
> dollar they get and every contract they land.
>
> I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet gets
from
> one interface to another in a router.
>
> all the CCIE certification proves is that you have passed Cisco's lab
test.
> It does not prove one way or another whether you know jack about
networking.
> I suggest that there is a percentage of the 2000 or so who have attained
the
> cert since last year who did so only because they successfully memorized
> enough scenario configurations that they were able to luck their way
through
> when their lab closely resembled one of those scenarios they memorized.
>
> I personally know several folks who passed over the last 18 months whose
> only hands on experience was in their practice labs. Of these, all were
> pretty sharp dudes, by the way.
>
> From personal experience I can tell you that I saw absolutely nothing in
my
> lab that made me wish I'd spent more time reading RFC's, or Comer, or any
of
> the other great books of the networking world. I saw plenty that made me
> wish I'd spent more time on certain practice materials readily available
( I
> refer to the commercially available products. please do not contact me for
> names and sources )
>
> whenever this topic comes up, I see the same kinds of thought processes as
I
> used to see in the days when people asked what good an English degree did
> you in the job market. It isn't the degree. it's the intelligence behind
it.
>
> hate to say it, kids, but the CCIE has no clothes. Experience is what
really
> matters. the certification to many is just a ticket, just the beginning.
to
> those with a lot of experience, it is merely a validation of the skill
set.
> in and of itself it is like any other piece of paper - representative of
> something, but perhaps not representative of what you may think.
>
> Chuck
> back to the pod - got lots to do before December 3
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> Don Claybrook
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:32 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
>
>
> I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an
excerpt.
> The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire
> technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talking
> about
> how certifications aren't as important as one might think:
>
> "When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a consultant's
> alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as my
> political science degree doesn't make me your next President. Terms like
> CCIE
> (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful completion
of
> the program and minimal competence in the product."
>
> I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the group might
> get
> a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the whole
thing:
> http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp
>
> Don Claybrook
> CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE)
Message Posted at:
http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=19089&t=18843
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