To add onto it...experience helps you support such networks and high profile web sites and enterprise networks in real time, where downtime is counted in minutes and sometimes in seconds. It is impossible to do clear ip bgp * and get your bgp routes which one may do all the time while preparing in a home lab.
In my personal opinion, today it is possible to pass ccie lab by simply studying in home lab with all the help from books, lab workbooks, bootcamps, home lab and group studies out there, which is very good thing. I am sure, it was not the case in 1998 when Paul B. (taking him as a example only) passed his test. I think cisco should remove some of the old technologies from the lab and add some of these cool real world scenarios to a reasobale extent that John mentioned below. May be have candidates log to syslog and ask them that they can not type clear ip bgp more than twice in the whole lab. That will make candidates think from real world angle. That is just an example, many such things come to mind. Impressive article John, you described ccie's day in real world very well. -Keyur Shah- CCIE# 4799 (Security; Routing and Switching) css1,scsa,scna,mct,mcse,cni,mcne Hello Computers "Say Hello to Your Future!" http://www.hellocomputers.com Toll-Free: 1.877.794.3556 "Now offering CCIE Security Lab Workbook and remote bootcamp, http://www.hellocomputers.com/hellosuccess.html"; -----Original Message----- From: John Neiberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 10:25 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Long....RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] After receiving an email from Joe, I would agree that he sounds like a very intelligent person with tremendous initiative. I'd like to differentiate between lab experience and OTJ experience. Learning to configure OSPF, EIGRP, and BGP at home is one thing. Going to a customer site who has 200 nodes, half of which were acquired from another company and are running OSPF while half are running EIGRP and all areas need to be able to communicate with each other and also have multiple redundant and area-diverse connections to different internet providers using BGP...that is experience. :-) Then, after a decision has been made to use a single IGP, make a choice between EIGRP and OSPF, or even IS-IS. Justify your reasoning and then determine a migration plan that minimizes customer downtime and guarantees that all areas have internet access at all times even if their local provider goes down. Help the customer to coordinate with ARIN and service providers to get the necessary address space and an assigned autonomous system number. When a given area has multiple connections to the same ISP, attempt to influence routing in the ISP so that it takes the closest entrance into your network for that user. Attempt to influence routing within each ISP so that you increase the chances that optimal routing will occur. Make certain that you only advertise the necessary prefixes while filtering all others. Configure routing within each area to take the closet exit possible, within reason. Provision and order the necessary circuits after getting quotes from several providers. Make a determination when and if point to point links could/should be used and where frame relay or ATM would be most suitable. Make sure that you have plenty of room for growth and enough bandwidth to support video conferencing over IP for certain sections of this network. Determine which type of traffic shaping, queueing, and/or rate limiting might be necessary and where it would be most useful. Upgrade routers and switches as necessary, making sure that you won't run into processor limitations during high traffic loads and you have enough WIC and NM slots available to support the connections you require. Make sure you select an IOS that supports those modules and software features you'll need....while minimizing the number of bugs that might affect you. Determine a backup plan for each area and include ISDN backup links, making sure the backup links can pass both IP, IPX, and some DLSw+ but do not pass streaming video and other non-essential traffic. Create a network infrastructure disaster recovery plan for each area and document your procedures. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, and *that's* what I mean by experience. Certainly, your experience doesn't need to be this comprehensive and detailed, I'm simply exaggerating to make a point. There is a *huge* difference between learning to configure this stuff at home and actually implementing it in the real world. Granted, this would be a huge task but it's one that a CCIE along with a group of engineers would be expected to be able to handle. A CCIE--even a highly intelligent and motivated one--with no experience would have difficulty with this. John >>> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" 2/4/02 10:23:37 AM >>> I have to jump in here. The original post said he had an impressive lab. If he uses the lab and works through scenarios, isn't this what the rest of you are calling experience. He doesn't get paid to do it, but he probably would end up with more experience than some of the people that we all work with collecting a pay check. IMHO Dean Whitley p.s. Joe, from the sounds of your post and initiative to achieve all those certs, I think a company would be foolish to not hire someone like you. -----Original Message----- From: Brad Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 11:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] Marshal, I totally agree, I dont think it's impossible for a candidate to pass without real-world hands-on experience. IMHO the program is actually quite a bit harder now, than it was a couple years ago. The program DID start as a way to test for hands-on experience, but the program has gone a different direction in the past couple years. There's such a wide/diverse and focused consulting/implementation field, I think it would be extremely difficult to focus on testing "hands-on." There would have to be 30+ different CCIE specialization programs (with a much larger variety of hardware/software differences used for each specialization as well). It would be an administrative nightmare for Cisco to administer such a program. -Brad Ellis CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security) Network Learning Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] used Cisco gear: www.optsys.net CCIE Labs, racks, and classes: http://www.ccbootcamp.com/quicklinks.html ""Marshal Schoener"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > I disagree. > There is not a Cisco test, nor any technical test for that matter that a > person can't pass with a whole lot of studying and some lab time. > > Yes the CCIE lab is extremely difficult. But to say it's impossible to pass > without 'real world' experience is just wrong. > > Regards, > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:09 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > Is there such > "D CCIE with no experience" > I highly doubt that ladies and gents, The whole point of a CCIE Lab is to > prove the experience you have gained in the field and how you go about > building and troubleshooting a network. > Friends of mine that are good engineers with extensive experience failed > the exam first time. > The amount of time you get in the lab exam gives you no time to refer back > to the documentation cd or to even think to hard!, you have to know exactly > what to do and how to do it and you have to do as fast as you possibly > can. > Anyone that has attempted the lab knows how draining it is both physically > and especially mentally. It is not easy! > For those of us attempting the lab and for those that have already achieved > there numbers we know we cannot do it without hands on and a good > troubleshooting base. Good Luck > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:22 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > Man that's an insult. A CCIE with no experience. I guess I will go back > to building race cars. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Carr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:27 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. 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