I think everyone is missing the point. By far the most important reason to get the CCIE is to get a job (honestly, why else would you do it?). But the stark reality is that without proper experience, you are going to find the job market quite tough anyway, I don't care how many or what certs you got. Granted, certs like the CCIE will help, but they won't help nearly as much as people seem to think they will.
Let's face facts, it's not 1999 anymore. Companies are no longer infatuated with the 4-digit number. You don't have stupid dotcoms throwing money around like drunken sailors, and because of the changes in the Cisco Partnership agreements, you don't have all these Partners running around desperately trying to fill their CCIE quotas. Now, every company who's looking to hire a network engineer will inquire about your experience. Believe me, talking about all the time you spent in a home-lab is definitely not the answer they're looking for. Now I know that I'm probably not going to convince anybody otherwise. I've ran into some of these no-experience CCIE-wannabe fanatics in real-life and I've never been able to convince any of them to see the light. Like Fox Mulder, 'They want to believe'. They just want to believe that all their life's problems will be solved just by passing an (admittedly hard) exam. All I have to say is - go ahead, see for yourself, learn the hard way. Just don't say I didn't warn you. ""John Neiberger"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > After receiving an email from Joe, I would agree that he sounds like a > very intelligent person with tremendous initiative. I'd like to > differentiate between lab experience and OTJ experience. > > Learning to configure OSPF, EIGRP, and BGP at home is one thing. > > Going to a customer site who has 200 nodes, half of which were acquired > from another company and are running OSPF while half are running EIGRP > and all areas need to be able to communicate with each other and also > have multiple redundant and area-diverse connections to different > internet providers using BGP...that is experience. :-) > > Then, after a decision has been made to use a single IGP, make a choice > between EIGRP and OSPF, or even IS-IS. Justify your reasoning and then > determine a migration plan that minimizes customer downtime and > guarantees that all areas have internet access at all times even if > their local provider goes down. > > Help the customer to coordinate with ARIN and service providers to get > the necessary address space and an assigned autonomous system number. > > When a given area has multiple connections to the same ISP, attempt to > influence routing in the ISP so that it takes the closest entrance into > your network for that user. Attempt to influence routing within each > ISP so that you increase the chances that optimal routing will occur. > Make certain that you only advertise the necessary prefixes while > filtering all others. Configure routing within each area to take the > closet exit possible, within reason. > > Provision and order the necessary circuits after getting quotes from > several providers. Make a determination when and if point to point > links could/should be used and where frame relay or ATM would be most > suitable. Make sure that you have plenty of room for growth and enough > bandwidth to support video conferencing over IP for certain sections of > this network. Determine which type of traffic shaping, queueing, and/or > rate limiting might be necessary and where it would be most useful. > > Upgrade routers and switches as necessary, making sure that you won't > run into processor limitations during high traffic loads and you have > enough WIC and NM slots available to support the connections you > require. Make sure you select an IOS that supports those modules and > software features you'll need....while minimizing the number of bugs > that might affect you. > > Determine a backup plan for each area and include ISDN backup links, > making sure the backup links can pass both IP, IPX, and some DLSw+ but > do not pass streaming video and other non-essential traffic. Create a > network infrastructure disaster recovery plan for each area and document > your procedures. > > And that's just the tip of the iceberg, and *that's* what I mean by > experience. Certainly, your experience doesn't need to be this > comprehensive and detailed, I'm simply exaggerating to make a point. > There is a *huge* difference between learning to configure this stuff at > home and actually implementing it in the real world. > > Granted, this would be a huge task but it's one that a CCIE along with > a group of engineers would be expected to be able to handle. A > CCIE--even a highly intelligent and motivated one--with no experience > would have difficulty with this. > > John > > >>> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" 2/4/02 10:23:37 AM >>> > I have to jump in here. The original post said he had an impressive > lab. > If he uses the lab and works through scenarios, isn't this what the > rest of > you are calling experience. He doesn't get paid to do it, but he > probably > would end up with more experience than some of the people that we all > work > with collecting a pay check. > > IMHO > Dean Whitley > > p.s. > > Joe, from the sounds of your post and initiative to achieve all those > certs, > I think a company would be foolish to not hire someone like you. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brad Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 11:10 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > Marshal, > > I totally agree, I dont think it's impossible for a candidate to pass > without real-world hands-on experience. IMHO the program is actually > quite > a bit harder now, than it was a couple years ago. The program DID start > as a > way to test for hands-on experience, but the program has gone a > different > direction in the past couple years. > > There's such a wide/diverse and focused consulting/implementation > field, I > think it would be extremely difficult to focus on testing "hands-on." > There > would have to be 30+ different CCIE specialization programs (with a > much > larger variety of hardware/software differences used for each > specialization > as well). It would be an administrative nightmare for Cisco to > administer > such a program. > > -Brad Ellis > CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security) > Network Learning Inc > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > used Cisco gear: www.optsys.net > CCIE Labs, racks, and classes: > http://www.ccbootcamp.com/quicklinks.html > > ""Marshal Schoener"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > I disagree. > > There is not a Cisco test, nor any technical test for that matter > that a > > person can't pass with a whole lot of studying and some lab time. > > > > Yes the CCIE lab is extremely difficult. But to say it's impossible > to > pass > > without 'real world' experience is just wrong. > > > > Regards, > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:09 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > > > Is there such > > "D CCIE with no experience" > > I highly doubt that ladies and gents, The whole point of a CCIE Lab > is to > > prove the experience you have gained in the field and how you go > about > > building and troubleshooting a network. > > Friends of mine that are good engineers with extensive experience > failed > > the exam first time. > > The amount of time you get in the lab exam gives you no time to refer > back > > to the documentation cd or to even think to hard!, you have to know > exactly > > what to do and how to do it and you have to do as fast as you > possibly > > can. > > Anyone that has attempted the lab knows how draining it is both > physically > > and especially mentally. It is not easy! > > For those of us attempting the lab and for those that have already > achieved > > there numbers we know we cannot do it without hands on and a good > > troubleshooting base. > > Good Luck > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steve Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:22 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > > > Man that's an insult. A CCIE with no experience. I guess I will go > back > > to building race cars. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joe Carr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:27 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > > > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work > experience. 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