Ok, inline ""Michael L. Williams"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Comments inline...... > > "Tom Monte" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > I think alot of us don't have a choice. If you don't have a job that > > provides alot of Cisco experience, you probably have a hard time finding > one > > that does. I don't see why I should be looked down on for that. > > I have to agree with Tom here...... nrf, you put too much value on > 'experience', period. I'm not one to argue that certs are better than > experience, but as my previous posts said, both certs and experience add > different components to ones knowledge and skills, and to claim that one is > better than the other has no merit. (here's a lighter view).... A network > engineer is like a good peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Could you eat and > enjoy a peanut butter sandwich? Sure... Could you eat and enjoy a jelly > sandwich? Sure..... But a good PB&J has just the right mixture of > both...... > > Certs alone are not better than experience. > > Experience alone is not (always) better than certs.
True, a blend is always better. But let me say this. Experience alone is usually better than certs alone. Naturally the blend is better. But if you had to pick one.... (continued later) > > If I'm running a network running OSPF and using ATM and VoIP, I'd much > rather hire a CCIE labrat over someone with years of experience on a network > running X.25 over T1 lines.... You say Dial-Peer, ASBR Virtual Link, or > VPI/VCI to the X.25/T1 person and they go "huh? I don't understand what > you're talking about, but I've got years of experience....". At least you > know the labrat has done the configuration of said things, enough to pass a > proctored lab exam.... What has the person with experience got to prove > (s)he can configure these things? Nothing..... The biggest problem that lab-rats face is simple. They don't have experience in working in a production environment. And it gets down to simple work attitudes and skills. Will the guy show up on time for his shift (if it's shift work)? Will he freak out and break under pressure when the network's down and the bosses are screaming at him? If the routers are acting oddly, will he approach the problem methodically, or will he pull a cowboy stunt like clearing all the BGP sessions? Does he have a personality that lets him relate to and get along with other network guys? With a lab-rat CCIE, these questions are all unknown, because he's never actually worked on a network before. My point is, far more important than whatever technical skills a person may have, is whether the guy is reliable while working on a network. As far as the guy with experience, at least I have some assurance, because if he really sucked, he probably would have been fired before he had the chance to accumulate the experience. Now obviously this isn't perfect (like I said, there is no perfect indicator), but it's still a useful indication, or at least, a whole lot more useful than a cert. With a cert, I know the guy can pass a test, but how do I know what he's going to do on a network? Is he going to do 'clear ip bgp *'? That's my point. > > Personally, I realize the value of both experience (don't debug EIGRP on > your busiest core router during an EIGRP storm without 'no logging console') > and certs. > > Remember, everything is relative...... If someone who is a CCIE with little > experience is interviewing for a job somewhere that the top network people > couldn't get through any of the CCNP exams, then perhaps they should demand > a higher salary..... who's to say they shouldn't? If that same CCIE is > interviewing for a job at a place that has 3 CCIEs (or good experienced > people) on staff and they expect much more from them, then perhaps that CCIE > should take the lower salary and see this as a great opportunity to learn > from other seasoned network professionals..... I'm sorry, but I've worked > many places where the network people were goons that though RIP was the best > thing since sliced bread..... I'd hire a labrat CCIE over them anyday..... > besides, I've seen labrat CCIEs that have gotten their first network job and > done great things..... one friend of mine was a labrat CCIE (for the most > part), and walked into a very well known top financial firm (the > headquarters) and all of the 'experienced' engineers there (up to the very > top of the network engineering ladder) stood by and watched him virtually > single handedly setup and configure their VoIP, their Hoot-n-Hollar system, > ALL of their Multicast IP routing architechtures (involving some very > complex situations with passing routes thru PIX, NATs, etc) and their IPTV > system. You wouldn't have hired him because he didn't have "experience" and > you would have been passing up possibly (IMHO) one of the best examples of a > top network engineer there is........ Well, I wouldn't have hired him because I could have easily hired another CCIE with significant experience, because they are available in this economy. And more to the point, I wouldn't have hired him because I have personally had bad experiences with lab-rats. One guy just sat around and played Solitaire all-day and while still demanding a high salary. Another 2 completely screwed up a bunch of 6500's and 4000's that we had (remember, those switches are not part of the exam). So I agree with you that some lab-rats are obviously good. But on the other hand, there are enough bad ones out there that it makes me wary to hire one. And surely you would agree, employers are looking to reduce risk when hiring people, so they will go for something safe. Obviously not all of them are bad. But enough of them are like this that it gives the employers pause. > > Don't forget..... people with certs and little experience can do great > things. Depends on the person..... not always the certs..... not always the > experience.... > > Mike W. 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