Comments inline... nrf wrote: > What I said is that not that I hate all 'lab-rat' CCIE's > because everybody > has to start somewhere.Rather that I find the phenomena that > people view > the CCIE as an easy shortcut highly suspect. This phenomena > manifests > itself in guys obtaining their cert and then immediately > demanding a level > of salary and respect equal to another guy who has > significantly more > experience.
A couple of comments here. First, given that the CCIE is quite difficult to obtain, I think that one who has achieved it deserves a certain minumum amount of respect whether they have 'real world' experience or not, and the fact that you (often) use the word 'labrat' to stereotype them denies them even that minimum level of respect. I'm not saying any CCIE (or anyone for that matter) should demand a level of respect which they are not due, but they also (regardless of how obtained) should never be denied that level of respect they've earned, especially from fellow networkers. Second, IMHO, you are making a grave mistake in assuming that experience always teaches one the lessons of networking any more than a certification. Experience can teach things certs dont. But certs can educate someone about things they've never done before they ever have to call upon that knowledge, and one type of knowledge is no less valuable than the other. There are many lessons that someone needs to learn in the school of hard knocks to really understand because the certification doesn't deal with such issues. However, a very wise man once told me, "Sometimes 5 years experience isn't 5 years experience. Many times it's the same 1 year of experience 5 times over". Think about that. I'll give an excellent example that shows this point (which I've given before, but I think it's needed to support my position). I worked with a gentleman at a previous job when I was 3 months into my first 6 months of real hands-on networking experience. This gentleman who had been dealing with Cisco and networking for 5+ years. I had just completed CCNP. He did a sniffer trace and was surprised when he saw multicast traffic and said outloud to all of his fellow "experienced" engineers "Where's this multicast traffic coming from?" I, the lowly inexperienced CCNP, asked "Aren't we using EIGRP" (which we were). He said "Yeah, but what's that got to do with this multicast traffic". I just turned and walked away. I was floored that a room full of engineers with a combined 50+ years of experience couldn't answer this, when ANYONE who has made it through the CCNP Routing exam would have answered the question in a heartbeat. Experience limits you to what you deal with. Certification encourages you (and requires you) to read and learn new things that you may never use just to be exposed to them. Experience is only as good as what it exposes you to. If you have 10 years experience with RIP networks and that's it, then that 10 years may just as well be 6 months. Because all that "experience" isn't going to mean squat in a shop running OSPF/BGF/EIGRP, etc... That's where having the knowledge that a certification gives you is advantageous. > Or it manifests itself in guys who don't want to > pay their dues > and do grunt-work and just want to be the senior network guy > without having > spent any time as the non-senior network guy. It is that kind > of behavior > that is what I'm targeting. Is my finding this phenomena > highly skeptical > really objectionable? I think most people here would find it > quite > reasonable. I think your skepticism here is valid, and a good thing. The only thing I would interject here is this: Believing that one must perform years of simple "go patch these ports in..... go mount this switch in the closet" type of gruntwork is nonsense. I'll use myself as an example. (kinda picking up from my story above) After my 6 months of good experience at my first job, and armed with CCNP, I got my current job... Sr. Network Engineer... I setup dial-in access routers, I setup VoIP trunks between PBXs, I implemented many things that were there that they weren't using because they didn't know they could (i.e. using MLS on Cat5500s with RSMs)... No one else here with their vast experience could do or did do any of these things.... Within 6 months of being here my boss realized that I could take the knowledge from my certs and put them with the built-in skill I had to understand and troubleshoot things, and put me in charge of our multi-state ATM WAN network including charging me with redesigning the way we do our routing, QoS, etc.... Every day I stand toe-to-toe with my lead network engineer and debate (and most times win) issues regarding switching, routing, etc and this is a guy with 8+ years of (good) experience in Cisco networking. In my case, and I belive the idea behind certs, is that you can gain a vast knowledge of networking in a shorter amount of time (just over 1 year for me from CCNA to CCNP) as opposed to getting 5-10 years experience and STILL not knowing as much about various aspects of networking as a CCNP or CCIE, etc would know. I don't think your gripe is with 'labrats'. I think your gripe is with people that aren't good with logic and troubleshooting getting through a cert and then not knowing what the hell they are doing, thus giving all with the certs a bad name..... Mike W. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=44388&t=44342 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
