""Ron Trunk"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Howard and dre, > First of all, thanks for the excellent thread! You've given me a great deal
> kids (ha!), I'm going to go over it in detail. Thanks for all the links > too! It's helpful to know what the best things to read are. Very cool. I know exactly how you feel, so any feedback would be highly appreciated. > At the risk of extended an already belabored subject, I did want to comment > Cisco router to solve any problem, even those that shouldn't be solved with > a router! Exactly the reason why the CCIE: Design didn't pan out, and why the CND/CID course material is a wee bit out-of-date. Real world experience is impossible to test on any type of standardized exam. There is no "shortcut" class or paper written to teach you what you need to know for the real-world. > You guys have obviously great expertise in a relatively specialized field. The "Internet" is considered a specialized field in networking? I never thought of it that way before. Please explain what you mean. I think that a CCIE: R&S is more specialized. No knowledge of SONET, per se (never touched an ADM or DCS). No real knowledge of ATM (never been inside an ATM switch). No real knowledge of anything except R&S. That's specialized! > Should everyone have to understand all these issues before they can rightly > call themselves a network engineer? Well plenty of NT administrators call themselves network engineers or network administrators. I think you can call yourself anything you want. It's not like you are claiming to be "Dr. Ron" with no Ph.D. However, if I were a hiring manager and needed this level of expertise for a TBD requisition for employment at my business, you can bet I'm not going to "just hire up a CCIE". Something to think about for a lot of people on this list who think CCIE is the Holy Grail. CCIE is *not* the Holy Grail. It's just one path to get to it. One path out of maybe thousands. But a highly respected one by some people, much like a paladin journeying against a band of ogres (the Shrek kind, not the mean kind). > How many SP jobs are there at that > level, especially in today's market? You'll find somewhere in our posts that there is so much need for these types of people, it is like an unstoppable force (in my mind). How else are we supposed to build this thing (and even keep it from crashing constantly) that allows us to have these discussions right now? How many job postings are there on hotjobs or dice right now? Who cares about that?! Move to a third-world country and connect them to the Internet! There's a job for you! > I would love to be able to specialize > like you have, but the realities of my job require me to be conversant in > everything Cisco sells. To use Howard's medical analogy, while I want to > master neurosurgery, I work in the ER and have to deal with everything from > heart attacks to broken bones to earwax. You can "specialize" like we have! Are you assuming that my job doesn't require me to be conversant in everything Cisco sells? And I seriously doubt you are as equally conversant in everything Cisco sells as some people out there. Cisco sells a lot of software in addition to their large set of hardware gear that ranges from R&S gear to IP Phones to ATM switches to DSLAM's to CDN products. And Cisco is not the only network equipment vendor. And they aren't the only software vendor specializing in networked applications. I work in the ER and do neurosurgery all the in same hour sometimes, to use your frame of reference. Networking is a *dynamic* field, filled with almost supernatural levels of constantly changing equations. It's best to be able to wear about a dozen different hats everyday. You have to pretend you're an end-user, a sys admin, a programmer, a content provider, a telco switch tech, a routing person, a switching person, a project manager, and a regular human in the same 5 minutes sometimes. That's what's so great about it, IMO. > To push the medical analogy just a bit farther, I think having the CCIE is > like graduating from medical school. You have mastered a body of knowledge > and have earned the right to put letters after your name, but no one is > going to give you a scalpel until you have completed a lengthy internship. > That's where the experience comes in. It's important to know where to cut. > It is even more important to know when not to cut. I'm not a medical student, so I can't say. I'm not going to bother to try to do analogies. There's a really long and detailed thread on NANOG-L right now discussing this exact same topic. It's seems like they really aren't getting anywhere with it. I think the exciting thing about the networking field is that it can't be described. It's so new, it's so exciting, and it's so constantly evolving and changing. Just so people don't get the wrong idea about me and where I come from, I want you guys to know that I'm not an oldtimer. I've only been doing networking for 7 years. You can learn what you want to learn about anything related to networking, and there's no point in starting or ending with CCIE. Make CCIE somewhere in-between your learning experience. I also suggest trying to make a formal education a part of your learning experience. However, a degree is not the "end-all, be-all" Holy Grail, either. When it comes to this stuff, it's all hard work, dedication, and lots of research and co-operation. To recap one of your questions earlier in this email, I was wrong. ... > Should everyone have to understand all these issues before they can rightly > call themselves a network engineer? In actuality, *every* issue addressed in *this* email needs to be understood before someone can rightfully call themselves a network engineer. CCIE isn't the Holy Grail. Certification doesn't prepare you for the real world. Formal education doesn't prepare you for the real world. They are just paths. Disappointing, yes. But also very exciting because there's a big world out there to discover. And lots of information to share. -dre Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=44941&t=44876 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
