Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: > > At 8:06 AM +0000 2/13/03, Eric Rogers wrote: > >Just curious, but didn't this all start when a couple of > vendors got into a > >pissing match over on the CCIE Lab list back when? > > > I'll leave it to Paul Borghese to decide how specifically to > discuss > this, but the problem literally goes back for years. Some of > the > worst offenses have been moderated out of the queue, so you > haven't > seen all of them. > > Suffice it to say that I'd be delighted to see objective > comparisons. > I'd personally not object to new product announcements (as > distinct > from advertisements), as long as someone doesn't start > announcing > every minor fix to keep their name in the spotlight. After > all, > vendors have their own support forums for that sort of thing. > > Vendors have lots of people with substantial expertise, but > some > responses really aren't at the level at which they could > contribute > and come across as flagging their product. There's nothing > wrong with > people with interest in training materials or services making > informative responses -- offhand, most of the "old timers" do > have > some product relationships. > > There are also problems with people who have made very few, or > even > zero, posts before they come out with an attack on a person or > on a > product. > > A complex issue is whether or not to have discussions on-list > of > commercial scenarios. If you don't have the workbook, the > discussion > is apt to be impossible to follow. If you describe the > scenario in > enough detail that someone can reproduce it, some vendors may > claim > illegal distribution. The only answer I can think of here is to > paraphrase the specific requirement, and show your own configs > and > displays and ask specific questions.
But, alas, if they were educated in U.S. schools, it seems they can't paraphrase and ask specific questions. :-) Also, come to think of it, paraphrasing is very hard for non-native English speakers too, not because of their education, which is probably better, but because of the obvious problem of writing in another language. Anyway, I'm 100% in favor of allowing questions about study materials. I think they are entirely relevant. I wasn't privy to the problems associated with these type of questions though. Priscilla (I won't put my sig that takes you to my site this time! ;-) > > What I don't want to see is personal attacks, or large volumes > of > commercial materials. I don't want to see things that appear to > involve attempts at, or corrections to, piracy. > > I haven't, for example, announced most of my CertZone tutorials > to > avoid the appearance of conflict of interest. That leads to > silly > situations like the present, where -- to violate my own rules > -- I > have a tutorial there that is freely downloadable for the rest > of the > month and bears on several discussions here. Incidentally, I do > not > make the decision at CertZone of which materials go into the > free > monthly post. > > I've been more liberal in mentioning my books, because books > are > inherently cheaper, and I think people know that author income > from > conventionally published books is far less than from workbook > sales. > Even then, I'll usually post some URLs to related materials. > > I do agree with Chuck's point alone that thinking any one > source of > training materials is adequate for CCIE, unless you have > extensive > real-world experience, just isn't realistic. If you can't > afford > more than one source, then get involved in writing and > exchanging > scenarios. That's a good exercise anyway -- after you write a > scenario that you think has a straightforward result and clear > instructions, you'll be amazed at how many people come back and > say > it's unclear. > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "The Long and Winding Road" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 6:21 PM > >Subject: CCIE Study Materials - Anti-Rant [7:62930] > > > > > >> There was some off line discussion earlier today about an > attempted post > >> asking about CCIE study materials, in particular vendors of > practice labs. > >I > >> don't see that particular post in the list today, so I'm > going to assume > >> that the decision was made not to allow it. And I am going > to rant a bit > >> about this and the topic of posting questions like "which > study materials, > >> which books, which practice labs are best for whatever?" > >> > >> Having been a regular participant on this news group for > over three years > >> now, I, like many here, have seen these same questions over > and over. As > >the > >> off line discussion went - maybe we should tell whomever > just to go search > >> the archives. > >> > >> My rant is this - maybe I'm cynical, and maybe I've seen > all the same > > > questions over an over, but dammit, this newsgroup was > started to help > >> people prepare for certifications, and dammit just because > I or anyone > >else > >> has seen the same questions over an over doesn't mean that > everyone else > >> has. These topics should be permitted, should be discussed, > and names > >should > >> be named. > >> > >> I appreciate the concern about commercial posts. I > appreciate that there > >> have been a couple of people who have footers advertising > all of their > >> business ventures, and will regularly post "that's right" > answers to other > >> posts just to get their products and services out in front > of this group. > >> > >> I appreciate that folks like Howard and Priscilla also have > books and > >other > >> things to sell, but are welcome here because of their > unselfish > >> participation, and unselfish helpfulness. > >> > >> I appreciate that there are other sources of study > materials and rent a > >rack > >> time than those whose names come up regularly here and over > on the CCIE > >> list. > >> > >> I appreciate that some of the purveyors of books and study > materials don't > >> bother participating on this forum, but that does not in > and of itself say > >> anything about the value of their products or services. I > think a forum > >like > >> this is an appropriate avenue to discuss the options out > there. > >> > >> While I personally don't care for a lot of the "what's > best" questions > >> because I think they beg he issue and really miss the > point, I do think > >that > >> the purpose of this news list remains exchange of > information and advice > >to > >> those who ask and from those willing to offer. > >> > >> I will finish this "anti rant" with two thoughts. > >> > >> 1) it's up to the participants here to determine how they > want things to > >go. > >> If people don't want to read posts about "what's best" they > are certainly > >> free to ignore them. If they can offer advice, I believe > people should be > >> free to offer it. I certainly think people should be free > to ask. I also > >> think that vendors should not be sneaking in here under > false names and > >> false pretenses asking people to comment on their product. > >> > >> 2) in the end, I don't believe that any of the books or > classes or > >practice > >> labs are better than any others in terms of preparing > people for certs, > >> particularly for the CCIE Lab. It is more important to read > a lot, study a > >> lot, practice a lot. Sorry to all of the purveyors of study > materials for > >> saying it, but the key is practice with lots of different > situations, not > >> practice with one vendor or another. > >> > >> Presented for your consideration. > >> > >> Chuck > >> -------- > >> TANSTAAFL > > > "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" > > Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=62973&t=62930 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
