Hi, Am 03.09.2009 um 23:01 schrieb Bokeh Sensei:
Really, the question is, what should we assume the user should know/ doesn't know/shouldn't know.
Yes. This can be a problem. What should be clear to everyone: VimClojure is not intended to hide the complexity of Vim in any form. If you don't know Clojure *and* don't know Vim, you should start with an editor you are already familiar with or do some thorough Vim tutorial first. I just assume that people know what "<C-x>" means. This is just the little Vim 101. Similar to Java with the Classpath etc.
However I agree (and the recent discussions shows this): the documentation on where the border is between VC and Vim or Java is not very clear. Also some FAQ with the most asked things (eg. the ~- shellism in the Classpath) can be included.
For instance, there might be some implementations details that may be important when installing, but likely to change as VimClojure matures. So, instead of adding more to the documentation, which could further confuse the user, maybe we could try this: - gather all the necessary installation steps, in the right order (done! in your head at least) - ask someone to write a single test for each step, and bunch 'em up in a bash script - notify the user when that step has failed. For instance, a typical question I had, but could not verify, is : is my classpath correct? Oh, yeah, that tilde thing... An experienced Java user might laugh at this, but a beginner, or a casual user would think differently.
Adding more and more information is certainly not very useful if done without thought. The existing documentation should be refactored and improved. Justin Johnson currently works on a Windows Installer, I on a Mac OS X package. I hope that this will simplify the setup. Some check script might also be of use.
However, there is also some notion in this idea, which I don't like! It treats the user as a child. I expect some sense of responsibility on the user side. I honestly didn't expect that the version number in the name of a jar can cause a problem. Especially since these are also things, I can't necessarily influence...
For users new to Vim and Java, such a checker might be of help but you should be wary not to start relying on it.
We understand how much energy you put into this, so instead of having you write tests, maybe someone else could do it. I would love to, for the little stuff I know.
I'm always open to idea, suggestions and (of course) patches. ;P
Another, perhaps stupid sounding point :) I want to make, is I think a Vim+VimClojure+NailGun+Clojure self-contained box would work great. All three would be so small a footprint (1/10th of Netbeans...), I don't care for the redundancy of installs if I can install them and get going in a few clicks.
This is already in work minus the Vim part. I don't want to include Vim because of several reasons: - VC is not advocating Vim as an editor, although I believe it's one of the best out there. If you don't have it (and don't know it) install Vim manually and get used to it. It's sufficiently complex to be a significant obstacle if you want to learn Vim and Clojure at the same time. - Building Vim on Windows and (sometimes) on Mac can be headache. I don't want to hunt down such troubles, in particular if I have only limited access to Windows machines. - I'm not sure, I want to blow up the package size by a some orders of magnitude. Vim has long lost its light weight...
Vielen Danken!
Bitte! :) Nichts zu danken. Sincerely Meikel
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