Perhaps we need to see an example of a minimalistic/modular approach that _has_ won out.
Node's express has > 5k commits, 177 contribs, >18k stars. Possibly the most popular node framework out there. Tagline? > Fast, unopinionated, minimalist web framework for node. On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 11:52:22 AM UTC-7, Leon Grapenthin wrote: > > No, it isn't. And never has this author proven that programmers with > bipolar personality are programming more LISP then other languages. > > Many larger libraries in the Clojure community are well documented and > "finished-off properly". > > Web frameworks have been tried and not been picked up. Users have chosen > the modular compose it yourself approach. Framework authors have simply > stopped maintaining what nobody wanted anyway or split them up into smaller > pieces. > > > On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 8:25:22 PM UTC+2, larry google groups wrote: >> >> >> > The web development industry as reflected in job postings at >> > Indeed.co.uk is still dominated by the likes of Rails, Django, >> Laravel, >> > Zend, Symfony & Spring so I'm not sure how you've concluded that >> there's >> > been a 15-year trend towards composition. >> >> That is a good point, though I would also point out that, according to >> Indeed.com, the use of Clojure is also growing. To me, what's important is >> the growth of the Clojure community, rather than the growth of some >> sub-community focused on a particular niche. >> >> However, I acknowledge you may have a point about the failure of any of >> the Clojure frameworks to take off. It's possible this is another >> manifestation of the Bipolar Programmer problem: >> >> http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm >> >> "Brilliance and failure are so often mixed together and our initial >> reaction is it shouldn't be. But it happens and it happens a lot. Why? >> ...But brilliance is not enough. You need application too, because the >> material is harder at university. So pretty soon our man is getting B+, >> then Bs and then Cs for his assignments. He experiences alternating >> feelings of failure cutting through his usual self assurance. He can still >> stay up to 5.00AM and hand in his assignment before the 9.00AM deadline, >> but what he hands in is not so great. >> >> ...So BBMs love Lisp. And the stunning originality of Lisp is reflective >> of the creativity of the BBM; so we have a long list of ideas that >> originated with Lispers - garbage collection, list handling, personal >> computing, windowing and areas in which Lisp people were amongst the >> earliest pioneers. So we would think, off the cuff, that Lisp should be >> well established, the premiere programming language because hey - its great >> and we were the first guys to do this stuff. >> >> But it isn't and the reasons why not are not in the language, but in the >> community itself, which contains not just the strengths but also the >> weaknesses of the BBM. >> >> One of these is the inability to finish things off properly. The phrase >> 'throw-away design' is absolutely made for the BBM and it comes from the >> Lisp community. Lisp allows you to just chuck things off so easily, and >> it is easy to take this for granted. I saw this 10 years ago when looking >> for a GUI to my Lisp (Garnet had just gone West then). No problem, there >> were 9 different offerings. The trouble was that none of the 9 were >> properly documented and none were bug free. Basically each person had >> implemented his own solution and it worked for him so that was fine. This >> is a BBM attitude; it works for me and I understand it. It is also the >> product of not needing or wanting anybody else's help to do something." >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 9:51:15 AM UTC-4, g vim wrote: >>> >>> On 03/05/2015 14:39, larry google groups wrote: >>> > The industry has been moving against frameworks for 15 years now. The >>> > peak of the monolithic framework craze was Struts, back in 2000. After >>> > that, people started craving something less bloated. That's why the >>> > whole industry was so excited when Rails emerged in 2004. Bruce Eckel >>> > summed up the sudden change of mood in his essay "The departure of the >>> > hyper-enthusiasts": >>> > >>> > http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=141312 >>> > >>> > But after awhile, people began to feel that even Rails was bloated, >>> > which lead to the emergence of micro-frameworks like Sinatra. >>> > >>> > And then, continuing with the trend, we've seen the emergence of >>> > eco-systems, such as Clojure, that allow the trend to go further: >>> > Clojure supports such high levels composition that frameworks are no >>> > longer needed. And this is the direction the industry has been moving >>> > for the last 15 years. Clojure is simply out in front. Most languages >>> > don't allow this level of composition. >>> > >>> >>> The web development industry as reflected in job postings at >>> Indeed.co.uk is still dominated by the likes of Rails, Django, Laravel, >>> Zend, Symfony & Spring so I'm not sure how you've concluded that there's >>> been a 15-year trend towards composition. Ruby and Python have had >>> lightweight composable alternatives for many years but Rails and Django >>> still dominate. I'm not against the composition at all. I just think we >>> need more structured alternatives that we can at least brand and market >>> as well as teach to Clojure beginners. >>> >>> gvim >>> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. 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