Well, there are 12 programs on 19x19 now, a big increase since this morning, and every one of them is playing under 10 minutes. A decrease in the time limit to 15 minutes would not affect any of these programs. It's nice to see the faster games, so the weak Many Faces 12 will get ratings sooner.
So far it looks like these weak Many Faces are stronger than I expected. I tested and each level is 5 stones stronger than the next weakest, but they seem closer together when playing other programs. David > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Fotland > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:24 PM > To: 'computer-go' > Subject: RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? > > I expect the faster time control will make my program look worse. It > will > certainly do worse vs Gnugo with less time. I expect it will also do > worse > against crazystone, since the crazystone version currently running is > much > faster than the time control, so it won't change strength at all. > > The problem with the current time limits is that it takes forever to > get a > stable rank, so people don't leave their programs on long enough. > > David > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:08 PM > > To: computer-go > > Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 > CGOS? > > > > Hi David, > > > > Putting some weaker programs on CGOS is a good idea - I would like > to > > see it seeded with players of many different strengths. > > > > Olivier is in charge of cgos 19x19 so whatever time he wants to set > is > > up to him. I would suggest to him to set a 1 second time gift if > he > > chooses to play at a faster rate since network will be a real issue > > with > > any who have a lousy connection. > > > > If the time control is cut in half, it will probably change the > > relative strengths of the programs, because some programs will not be > > crippled by the time change and other will. Here is what I would > > predict: > > > > 1. Gnugo would increase in ranking. > > 2. Your program will increase in rank - but not as much as GnuGo. > > 3. Crazy Stone will drop in rank. > > 4. Every program will drop in ELO except GnuGo or other non- > > scalable > > programs. > > > > I'm assuming that your program is scalable, that Crazy Stone is more > > scalable and GnuGo is not scalable (in other words it would run just > > the > > same as it does now.) > > > > So if we decrease the time control, it will make you look better and > > you may get lazy about improving your program. However, it might > > make GnuGo competitive with your program. I'm of course making > > certain scalability assumptions that might not be true. > > > > My suggest to Olivier is to compromise and set time control 20 > minutes > > per side and give 1 second gift. > > > > - Don > > > > > > > > > > David Fotland wrote: > > > I think there are two reasons there are not more programs on 19x19 > > CGOS: > > > > > > 1) The anchor, Gnugo, is quite strong, Many Faces 12 is stronger, > and > > > CrazyStone is much stronger. Since the programs playing are so > > strong, it > > > is demoralizing for a new program to lose so often. Without weaker > > > competition, it is hard to get accurate ratings for new, weaker > > programs. > > > > > > 2) The rounds take almost an hour, so it takes much too long to get > > enough > > > games to see how your program is doing. In my local testing, I use > > 10 or 15 > > > minutes per side. I like to see 50 to 100 test games get any > > confidence > > > that a new version is stronger. I prefer to get a test run > complete > > in > > > under a day. > > > > > > I propose the following changes: > > > > > > I'll put up 3 weaker versions of Many Faces 12, so there is > > competition at > > > lower ratings. These versions are quite fast, using only a few > > seconds for > > > a full game. This will provide some stable opponents for the > weaker > > > programs. > > > > > > I think the time limits for CGOS19x19 should be reduced to 10 or 15 > > minutes > > > per side. This is enough to test programs, and it's still a > > reasonable time > > > limit for games against people. Since programs that search scale > > with > > > additional time, the relative ratings of these programs should be > > similar at > > > 10 minutes per game and 30 minutes per game. > > > > > > -David > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > computer-go mailing list > > > computer-go@computer-go.org > > > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > computer-go mailing list > > computer-go@computer-go.org > > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > _______________________________________________ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ _______________________________________________ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
