Hi Ridge, You are brave to bring this issue up. I empathize with your discomfort, and appreciate your willingness to try to work around it to make the space safe and welcoming to other dancers.
As a lesbian, I confess my initial (unthinking and I’m not proud of it) reaction was “get over it—gay folks have been expected to swing a partner they’re not attracted to and may even find repulsive for hundreds of years.” But then I thought a bit longer and I could actually relate: I heard another lesbian dancer say years ago she chose to only dance the “gent” role to avoid swinging with (a few) leering heterosexual men—she solved the problem by choosing the gent role. Of course that is different from being uncomfortable swinging with ALL men, because it was about the leering vibe, not the sex of the person. So I guess that’s not the same. (BTW, we fixed that problem by coming up with a dance code of ethics, announcing expectations at every dance, and then finally banning the one problematic guy who refused to stop making double entendre comments.) But back to empathizing with your situation: I will say this: I almost always dance the lark role because of a tricky hip. And I’m COMPLETELY comfortable swinging with all the men who come down the line dancing as robins. But, I confess, when I (rarely) dance the robin role, I am compelled to swing with some men who only dance lark who I’m not used to swinging and it does feel a little awkward to me. Not repulsive or scary. Just weird, as if this is a level of intimacy that is not “supposed” to happen with this person. (And, honestly, it’s NOT supposed to happen: I’m not heterosexual, so it doesn’t feel “natural” initially.) I will say that once I do it for a while I get used to it and it’s fine—I suspect the same would happen for you if you give it some time. But I also will say this: when I was living in Alabama in the 1990s and doing those “meet a gay person for the first time to find out we’re not so scary” Q&A sessions, one thing I always said was “I know if you’re straight, the idea of two people of the same sex having sex may feel really icky to you. I get it. I have the same reaction to thinking about heterosexuals having sex... Ick.” I found this really helped them get past the gut feeling of “wrongness” that the idea of gayness had. And, honestly, it was also true for me. (Not for all gay folks but true for me... Ick! Why would anyone DO that?!) So it would feel disingenuous to me to not at least empathize with someone who has a gut reaction to swinging another guy. Now, again, swinging is not sex, and I think it should be possible for most guys to get over this in the same way most lesbians have gotten over having to swing men. And most of the “don’t touch a guy that way” feeling more likely comes from a lifetime of homophobic messaging that has shamed boys for anything that could be construed as being “gay” (rather than from a genuine, innate feeling of ickiness). But for some folks that may be a thing. I think for most folks (because swinging is just swinging and not sex!) that some gutting it out until it feels normal will likely do the trick. But if that doesn’t work, I do hope your home dance will accommodate your needs by not judging you if you ask for a different swing. That said, I confess my first uninformed reaction to someone asking for another swing would likely be an assumption that it came from a place of homophobia. That comes from a lifetime of subtle and non-subtle signals of non-inclusion/rejection/judgment that queer folks have had to deal with our whole lives. But I do hope that if I were in your home dance, if we had some genuine, caring conversations about it (so that I knew it wasn’t coming from a “I need everyone to know I’m straight!!!” place) I could get past that and understand your need for an accommodation. Just one woman’s response. I’m not speaking for all queer folks here! :-) Becky > On Feb 9, 2023, at 9:52 AM, Ridge Kennedy via Contra Callers > <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > Dear All, > > I have thought a lot about the nomenclature issues. I too went from ladies to > women and back to ladies, worked with armbands and bare arms, leaders and > followers, larks and robins, and have lapsed almost accidentally into > positional calling out of an abundance of trying not to say the wrong thing. > > Yet, for all the talk about the talk, there remains, for me, a big problem in > the actual dancing. > > "Comfort" and "comfortable" and words like that can be found in abundance in > the charters, mission statements, and announcements that dance groups publish > on their websites and read at dances. I'm in full agreement -- anyone who > attends a dance should feel safe and comfortable. If a dance community wants > to change the words it uses in order to achieve that goal, then I must, > perforce, support that decision. > > Still, I (he, him, his, etc.) personally feel distinctly uncomfortable doing > a ballroom swing with other same-gender dancers. > > I've discussed my feelings with other dancers in my area, and I know I am not > alone, both among dancers of my gender and dancers of the opposite gender. > Yet, by even raising the question, I have also been described (not to my > face) in very unflattering terms. > > About ten thousand years ago, when I first started dancing, there was a > commonly accepted symmetrical swing that was used. It was, in retrospect, a > little bit uncomfortable as it involved reaching the right arm across the > other dancer's body and hooking a hand around the other dancer's torso. In > retrospect, not good. A two-hand turn is, in my mind, not a very acceptable > alternative to a ballroom swing. I have seen some folks do some lively > variations with crossed hands and such so that it can work, but I think there > is a better option that I have been encouraging dancers to learn. I call it a > Scottish swing. (John Sweeny includes it in his videos of eleventy-seven ways > to swing as a Northumbrian swing.) > > Here's what it looks like. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HWhKWRn_jk> > > I like it because I can give a clear signal for the kind of swing that I want > to do, I feel completely comfortable doing it with any dancer, and it allows > my swinging partner and me to enjoy a very satisfactory swing. It's easy to > learn. I have even found that I can teach it to dancers on the fly in the > middle of a dance. > > Maybe it is not the best option for a symmetrical swing (an alternative to a > ballroom swing). If someone can propose a better alternative, I'll give it a > try. > > But for all of the concern about words and terminology, it seems to me that > the overall dance community ought to pay attention to this particular aspect > of actually dancing. > > Sincerely, > > Ridge > > > Ridge Kennedy [Exit 145] > > Hey -- I wrote a book! Murder & Miss Austen's Ball. > It's a novel with musical accompaniment. Now that's different. > > Read all about it here! <https://www.hedgehoghousebooks.com/> > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 8:57 AM Gabrielle Taylor via Contra Callers > <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > As a member of the LGBT community, my view (personal, from talking to others, > and from votes in local contra dances in Western Massachusetts) is it's very > good to have a consistent term that isn't inherently gendered. > > After local debate and dance-specific polls, we've been using larks and > robins/ravens here since about 2018, and I think it's been a big improvement > over ladies/gents. Larks and robins are my personal preference, since it's > what everyone here is used to, and I at least don't have enough bird > knowledge to get confused about robins or larks having some inherent > gendering. I don't have any cultural stance against positional calling, but > the confusion of "lefts allemande right" seems a lot worse than learning new > terms. > > Thanks, > Gabrielle > >> On Feb 9, 2023, at 13:45, Jim Thaxter via Contra Callers >> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: >> >> Just a thought, but has anyone checked with the lgbtq community about what >> terms they would like to have used? >> >> Another thought, someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the >> terminology issue had been discussed thoroughly some time ago and the >> decision had been made to go with the birds. I don’t remember seeing or >> hearing about a general survey sent out to all the CDSS affiliates or any >> other general list of dance groups around the country or world vetting that >> decision >> >> Personally, I’m exploring positional calling. Just my gut feeling, but I >> think fewer people would be challenged by right/left directional calls than >> by being called bird names. >> >> Jim Thaxter >> Columbia, MO >> >> On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 6:31 AM Amy Cann via Contra Callers >> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: >> Since no one else has mentioned this, I'll just say that my entire >> personal difficulty with birds comes from fairy tales and ornithology. >> >> When we say "robin" we are mostly thinking about that bird with the >> "red breast", right? Not something kinda reddish-brownish? That's the >> male. In my childhood I read any number of books with >> anthropomorphised birds, and Mister Robin Redbreast was male. In a >> bunch of the stories there was also small, sweet-singing female lark. >> >> Add to that that in the states the robin is a different bird from in >> the UK, and much larger, I've got two good reasons to think of the >> robin as being the "male" role. My brain weighs the imagery and >> memories against that silly little detail of starting with "R" or "L" >> and defaults obstinately to the exact wrong conclusion every time. >> EVERY time. It's somewhat maddening. But "Ravens" was even worse, >> because ravens are black and men in formal clothing dress in black, so >> I guess things are better now?? >> >> Whew. Change is hard. >> >> On 2/9/23, Peghesley via Contra Callers >> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: >> > Bree, I’m making the same change as well and am calling without reference >> > to >> > role and don’t need bird terms. Louise Siddons’ position is a compelling >> > one. >> > >> > Peg Hesley >> > www.peghesley.com <http://www.peghesley.com/> >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone using voice recognition >> > >> >> On Feb 8, 2023, at 7:04 PM, Bree Kalb via Contra Callers >> >> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I made the same changes Chrissy did and for the same reason. I think it >> >> was 4-5 years ago when I switched from M and W to Gents and Ladies. And >> >> it seems to me that almost all the local callers did the same. >> >> >> >> ( Now I’m calling without reference to gender or role. Louise Siddons >> >> booklet “Dance the Whole Dance” from CDSS describes well what many of us >> >> are learning to do.) >> >> >> >> If it matters, my dance community is in a progressive/liberal area, so >> >> calling styles here might be different than in other places. >> >> >> >> Bree Kalb >> >> Carrboro, NC >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 8:18 PM Jacob or Nancy Bloom via Contra Callers >> >> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> At the Ralph Page Legacy day last month, Chrissy Fowler did a session in >> >>> which she called dances as she called them at different times in her >> >>> career. In it, she talked about how, at one point, she and other female >> >>> callers were insisting on the term "women" because they weren't ladies, >> >>> and then several years later they were insisting on the term "ladies" >> >>> because that was understood to be the name of a role. >> >>> >> >>> I can't give a year when it happened, but I do believe I remember a time >> >>> when at least some callers were making it explicitly clear that the terms >> >>> Gents and Ladies referred to roles, and anybody could dance either role. >> >>> >> >>> Jacob >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 2:29 PM Tony Parkes via Contra Callers >> >>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> I believe it’s in Myrtle Wilhite’s Lullaby of the Swing and other contra >> >>>> dances, tunes, waltzes, and essays (Madison, WI, 1993). I can’t lay my >> >>>> hand on my copy at the moment, but perhaps someone else has one. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Tony Parkes >> >>>> >> >>>> Billerica, Mass. >> >>>> >> >>>> www.hands4.com <http://www.hands4.com/> >> >>>> >> >>>> New book! Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century >> >>>> >> >>>> (available now) >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> From: Mary Collins <native...@gmail.com <mailto:native...@gmail.com>> >> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2023 2:11 PM >> >>>> To: Jeff Kaufman <j...@alum.swarthmore.edu >> >>>> <mailto:j...@alum.swarthmore.edu>> >> >>>> Cc: Tony Parkes <t...@hands4.com <mailto:t...@hands4.com>>; Joe >> >>>> Harrington >> >>>> <contradancer...@gmail.com <mailto:contradancer...@gmail.com>>; >> >>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin') >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Jeff, me too...if you find it, share please. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> mary >> >>>> >> >>>> "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who >> >>>> couldn't hear the music." - Nietzsche >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about >> >>>> learning to dance in the rain!” ~ unknown >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 9:58 AM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers >> >>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Aside: does anyone have a copy of the "I am not a lady" essay? I'd be >> >>>>> interested to read it. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Jeff >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 9:54 AM Tony Parkes via Contra Callers >> >>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>>>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Joe Harrington wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> > When I started dancing in the late 1980s… Callers were taking the >> >>>>>> > revolutionary step of not calling "men" and "women" but rather using >> >>>>>> > "ladies" and "gents", to signal that switching roles was ok, since >> >>>>>> > nobody referred to themselves as a "lady" or a "gent" in casual >> >>>>>> > conversation. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Where was this, Joe? And are you talking about contra callers (rather >> >>>>>> than ECD)? I can only speak about the NYC area in the 1960s and early >> >>>>>> ’70s, and New England starting in the late ’60s and continuing to the >> >>>>>> present. In both regions, square/contra callers (contras were a >> >>>>>> subcategory of square dance until around 1975) universally used >> >>>>>> “gents/ladies.” (I believe ECD teachers have always used “men/women,” >> >>>>>> presumably emulating Playford and Cecil Sharp.) AFAIK, northeastern >> >>>>>> callers pretty consistently used “gents/ladies” until some of them >> >>>>>> started to move away from gender-related terms. Tolman and Page’s >> >>>>>> Country Dance Book (1937) uses “gents/ladies,” as do most of the other >> >>>>>> standard American dance books from the 1900s to the 1950s (a few, >> >>>>>> aimed at schoolteachers, use “boys/girls”). >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I know of no region where callers changed from “men/women” to >> >>>>>> “gents/ladies.” I know that some callers, beginning I think in the >> >>>>>> ’80s, changed from “gents/ladies” to “men/women,” feeling that >> >>>>>> “gentlemen” and “ladies” smacked of classism. (One female caller, in >> >>>>>> an essay titled “I am not a lady,” requested that other callers not >> >>>>>> use her contra compositions if they adhered to “gents/ladies.”) As an >> >>>>>> amateur (= lover) of dance history, I would like to know about past >> >>>>>> changes of which I was unaware. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Tony Parkes >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Billerica, Mass. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> www.hands4.com <http://www.hands4.com/> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> New book! Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> (available now) >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>>>>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >> >>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>>>>> <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>>>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >> >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >> >>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>>>> <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >> >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >> >>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>>> <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >> >>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> >>> <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> >> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >> >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> >> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> >> <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> >> _______________________________________________ >> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> > > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
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