On Sunday 05 October 2003 10:43 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > On Sunday 05 Oct 2003 14:55, Thomas Backlund wrote: > >> Jos Hulzink kirjoitti viestissään (lähetysaika Sunnuntai 05 Lokakuu > >> 2003 > >> > >> 15:30): > >> > This is not a matter of depending on gaim, this is a matter of > >> > >> willing to prevent reviews from writing "Mandrake 9.2 is no good, it > >> comes with broken software" > >> > >> > Mandrake has a nice update feature during install, let's use it, > >> > >> instead of defining what a bugfix is. What is better ? A few extra > >> kB of updates, or a broken distribution ? > >> > >> The problem that arises here is "the bigger picture"... > >> You say "a few extra kB..." > >> But once you open the "bugfix/security updates" system to this, > >> where does it end...?? > >> > >> People will start saying: "... but you updated that package ...", and > >> "this package adds or modifies this or that feature that is needed... > >> if we don't have it I consider it's broken... and we can't have a > >> "broken" distrib..." > > > > Now we're comparing OpenOffice with Gaim... What these bugs are for > > Gaim, is "oowriter and oocalc won't start" for OpenOffice. (Which > > actually happened to me in RC2, but happened to be fixed in time). I.e. > > buggy enough to make the package unusable for most people. > > Oh, come on. Rename ~/.openoffice with your favourite file management > tool, and then try again. Or run it from the console to see what the error > is. > > I think Gwenole had problems reproducing it, and I don't remember anyone > providing a real test case. > > >> so where do you draw the line...? > >> and since all packages always gets updated with more features, > >> or feature enchancements... > > > > To be honest: for me, the sky is the limit, but it's easy talking with a > > cable connection. But to draw a line: most packages have a distinction > > between bugfix releases and feature releases. Ok, of course with Gaim > > we got the exception to this rule... > > Exactly, gaim would be a feature release, not a bug release => it should > not go in updates IMHO, but in unsupported/MandrakeClub. > > >> today gaim, tomorrow OpenOffice.org final..., and then ... > >> > >> and suddenly the updates mirrors are not a few kB more... instead you > >> will be calculating the updates in MBs, then in GBs .... > > > > For some reason I immedately must think about the famous Redmond OS > > service packs, sometimes 100 MB in size. You happily download those, > > for they fix bugs. > > > >> So IMHO here comes the power of an Club membership..., > >> > >> join the club and you will most likely get the downloads there... and > >> all are happy... (you get what you pay for... remember...) > > > > You say, become a club member. Ok, fair. Problem is, when I Mr newbe > > user download Mandrake, I see a buggy distro, and no updates. > > Or, I see that using proprietary, controlled communication protocols is a > bad idea (Gaim). A new user shouldn't see any problems with OpenOffice.org > (AFAIK the problem you mention only happens on upgrade).
Only one problem with this - a new Linux user doesn't know or care about open source vs proprietary politics, or that using Yahoo and MSN is bad while Jabber is good, or whatever. We can TEACH them about this later, once we HAVE them as users. Problem is if they can't do the simple things they do every day with windows - and as much as I hate to admit it, online chat is a big one, they won't stay to learn why they can't - they'll just leave. > > > In the > > first place, I see nowhere that many problems are solved if I pay (and > > I'm reluctant to pay, for Mandrake is buggy, and who tells me that my > > problems are gone after I paid ?), in the second place, after I paid, > > the manual how to get the club updates in, is practically non existent > > (I found something deep in a forum once). > > What do you mean by buggy???? > > And *real* bug can be filed at bugs.mandrakelinux.com, and will be solved. > > For feature updates to software, go to MandrakeClub. > > And, BTW, the Mandrake firsttime wizard should set the Club source up for > you, and if you bought a box, you will get a month membership, so you can > join immediately (with the product code on the box). It should be > painless. > > > Users are willing to pay for something good, not for something bad that > > mabye gets better after they paid. To quote you: "join the club and you > > will most likely get the downloads there". I don't see whether that is > > true, so I should just pay and hope ? Sorry, that's not the way > > customers think in 2003. > > Sure, but we aren't responsible for other peoples instant messaging > networks. If they *really* want to play "change-the-protocol", that's > their problem. Nope, we're not responsible for them. We just have to have happy customers who can talk to / with them. > > > What I am really discussing is the way users see MandrakeSoft, that > > almost bankrupt company with a rather cool distro that needs all money > > it can get. The problem with any linux distribution is that the > > Download Edition is in fact your advertisement. And bad advertisement > > doesn't sell. And selling is essential for MandrakeSoft. > > I don't see how this is relevant. I don't use gaim (instant messaging > doesn't work through our corporate firewall, and if I really wanted > instant messaging I would use jabber or something open), so I think 9.2 > really is a good release. Yes, but millions of potential customers DO use it. > > > Maybe -but that's too late now- it is an option to add a feature during > > the install period: Enter MandrakeClub membership ID / Passwd (or > > registration code) to get less critical updates. > > You obviously haven't run the firsttime wizard, otherwise you would have > seen this, username/password option or product code for setting up acecss > to the MandrakeClub urpmi media. > > > I can live with paying > > for some updates, if only you can make clear to the customers what they > > gain after paying. Show them a list of updates only available to > > members... or something... > > Visit MandrakeClub, you can see all the packages available to members, you > just can't access them. > > Please, come back when you have done your research ... > <sigh> As long as we make it as easy as possible for a new user decide to stay with Mandrake. I would hate to see a new desktop user bail over this minor piece of software when so much has gone into the MAJOR pieces. V.
