Dear Daria,
This is a much debated question. I follow the theory of David Wiggins
(/Sameness and Substance Renewed/ (Cambridge, 2001)), which appears to
me to be consistent. There is no natural identity to something material.
We need to specify under which category we consider some matter. The
category must provide identity criteria beforehand. The same matter may
participate in different "things" of different identity. The identity
conditions of a category must serve a purpose.
The purpose is identified by a question.
So, question: "Is this an original Varsari? " could be defined in terms
of the actual matter Varsari had in his hands and the way he gave it
artistic shape, regardless later modifications. We could define the end
of existence when major parts of the paint layer are lost, or when the
last major part is lost, or latest, when the whole paint layer is lost.
This category of "original painting" would "answer": "still the same".
Another definition may be based on phases and degrees of replaced
matter. But they easily run into problems with
environmentally caused degradation and natural decay of material, which
is a continuous process. So, change of a
physical object is inevitable and continuous. It is much more prominent
in living beings.
I would associate conservation states rather with secondary features of
objects and not with their overall identity.
Again we need a definition of relevant traits separating one from the other.
I agree that physical objects can change form. This is why we talk about
"relative stability". The specific type should determine which deviation
of form is "unnatural","renders the object unusable", "destroyed" or
whatever may determine its practical end of existence and transition
into something else or disappearance.
Best,
Martin
On 4/10/2018 4:57 PM, Дарья Юрьевна Гук wrote:
Maybe I am not right, but a state of conservation is under discussion. "Vasari" before of
after restoration. Is it the same identity? Same Vasari, artefact could change form but we tell
about it "the same item".
With kind regards,
Daria Hookk
Senior Researcher of
the dept. of archaeology of
Eastern Europe and Siberia of
the State Hermitage Museum,
ICOMOS member
190000, Санкт-Петербург, Дворцовая наб.34
Тел. (812) 3121966; мест. 2548
Факс (812) 7109009
E-mail: ho...@hermitage.ru
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Doerr [mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr]
To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
Sent: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 17:05:02 +0400
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] HW S11
Dear All,
By the way, an interesting aspect of samples is that they can be split
without loosing their identity. Obviously, there is
some complexity in the object-ness of the sample versus its substance.
Tracing split samples is a practical issue in labs.
Any thoughts?
Best,
martin
On 4/10/2018 1:16 PM, Martin Doerr wrote:
Dear Martijn,
A better formulation is always welcome!
Logically, it is correct: "no stability of form is required" does NOT
exclude stability of form. I give explicitly the example "the sequence
of layers of a bore core". The point is, that we take a sample for a
particular feature it will be a witness for. The identity of the
sample and its duration of existence as a sample depends on the kind
of feature that needs to be preserved, be it a stratigraphy, a
chemical composition or whatever. Consequently, it can be diminished
quite substanstially without loosing this identity, whereas other
impacts may not change its discreteness as a stable piece of matter,
but destroy the relevant composition.
Proposals welcome.
Best,
Martin
On 4/9/2018 11:15 PM, P.M. van Leusen wrote:
"no stability of form is required" would exclude some types of
samples, e.g. kubiena tin samples taken for microstratigraphy,
palynology, or paleomagnetism. I would advise excising this phrase.
Martijn
On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 21:19 Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr
<mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
Dear All,
Here my proposal for a better scope note:
S11 Amount of Matter[1]
Subclass of: S10
<#m_2886038186972212311__S10_Material_Substantial> Material
Substantial
Superclass of:S12 <#m_2886038186972212311__S12_Amount_of> Amount
of Fluid
S13 <#m_2886038186972212311__S13_Sample> Sample
Scope note:This class comprises fixed amounts of matter specified
as some air, some water, some soil, etc., defined by the total
and integrity of their material content. In order to be able to
identify and recognize in practice one instance of S11 Amount of
Matter, some sort of confinement is needed that serves as a
constraint for the enclosed matter and the integrity of the
content, such as a bottle. In contrast to instances of E18
Physical Thing, no stability of form is required. The content may
be put into another bottle without loosing its identity.
Subclasses may define very different identity conditions for the
integrity of the content, such as chemical composition, or the
sequence of layers of a bore core. Whereas an instance of E18
Physical Thing may gradually change form and chemical composition
preserving its identity, such as living beings, an instance of
S11 Amount of Matter may loose its identifying features by such
processes. What matters for the identity of an instance of S1
Amount of Matter is the preservation of a relevant composition
from the initial state of definition on.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 |
Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 |
| Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr
<mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr> |
|
Center for Cultural Informatics |
Information Systems Laboratory |
Institute of Computer Science |
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) |
|
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, |
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
|
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl |
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--------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 |
Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 |
| Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr |
|
Center for Cultural Informatics |
Information Systems Laboratory |
Institute of Computer Science |
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) |
|
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, |
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
|
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl |
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_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 |
Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 |
| Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr |
|
Center for Cultural Informatics |
Information Systems Laboratory |
Institute of Computer Science |
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) |
|
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, |
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
|
Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl |
--------------------------------------------------------------
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 |
Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 |
| Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr |
|
Center for Cultural Informatics |
Information Systems Laboratory |
Institute of Computer Science |
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) |
|
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, |
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
|
Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl |
--------------------------------------------------------------
