Again agree with Martin (what’s happening to me?) and like Wiggins, I have a copy of it on my night table for night meditation.
In my opinion the issue raised by Daria belongs to the category of the Ship of Theseus paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus) Franco Prof. Franco Niccolucci Director, VAST-LAB PIN - U. of Florence Scientific Coordinator ARIADNE - PARTHENOS Piazza Ciardi 25 59100 Prato, Italy > Il giorno 10 apr 2018, alle ore 19:06, Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr> ha > scritto: > > Dear Daria, > > This is a much debated question. I follow the theory of David Wiggins > (Sameness and Substance Renewed (Cambridge, 2001)), which appears to me to be > consistent. There is no natural identity to something material. We need to > specify under which category we consider some matter. The category must > provide identity criteria beforehand. The same matter may participate in > different "things" of different identity. The identity conditions of a > category must serve a purpose. > The purpose is identified by a question. > > So, question: "Is this an original Varsari? " could be defined in terms of > the actual matter Varsari had in his hands and the way he gave it artistic > shape, regardless later modifications. We could define the end of existence > when major parts of the paint layer are lost, or when the last major part is > lost, or latest, when the whole paint layer is lost. > > This category of "original painting" would "answer": "still the same". > Another definition may be based on phases and degrees of replaced matter. But > they easily run into problems with > environmentally caused degradation and natural decay of material, which is a > continuous process. So, change of a > physical object is inevitable and continuous. It is much more prominent in > living beings. > > I would associate conservation states rather with secondary features of > objects and not with their overall identity. > Again we need a definition of relevant traits separating one from the other. > > I agree that physical objects can change form. This is why we talk about > "relative stability". The specific type should determine which deviation of > form is "unnatural","renders the object unusable", "destroyed" or whatever > may determine its practical end of existence and transition into something > else or disappearance. > > Best, > > Martin > > On 4/10/2018 4:57 PM, Дарья Юрьевна Гук wrote: >> Maybe I am not right, but a state of conservation is under discussion. >> "Vasari" before of after restoration. Is it the same identity? Same Vasari, >> artefact could change form but we tell about it "the same item". >> >> >> With kind regards, >> Daria Hookk >> >> Senior Researcher of >> the dept. of archaeology of >> Eastern Europe and Siberia of >> the State Hermitage Museum, >> ICOMOS member >> >> >> 190000, Санкт-Петербург, Дворцовая наб.34 >> Тел. (812) 3121966; мест. 2548 >> Факс (812) 7109009 >> E-mail: >> ho...@hermitage.ru >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Martin Doerr [ >> mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr >> ] >> To: >> crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> >> Sent: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 17:05:02 +0400 >> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] HW S11 >> >> >> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> By the way, an interesting aspect of samples is that they can be split >>> without loosing their identity. Obviously, there is >>> some complexity in the object-ness of the sample versus its substance. >>> Tracing split samples is a practical issue in labs. >>> >>> Any thoughts? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> martin >>> >>> On 4/10/2018 1:16 PM, Martin Doerr wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Martijn, >>>> >>>> A better formulation is always welcome! >>>> >>>> Logically, it is correct: "no stability of form is required" does NOT >>>> exclude stability of form. I give explicitly the example "the sequence >>>> of layers of a bore core". The point is, that we take a sample for a >>>> particular feature it will be a witness for. The identity of the >>>> sample and its duration of existence as a sample depends on the kind >>>> of feature that needs to be preserved, be it a stratigraphy, a >>>> chemical composition or whatever. Consequently, it can be diminished >>>> quite substanstially without loosing this identity, whereas other >>>> impacts may not change its discreteness as a stable piece of matter, >>>> but destroy the relevant composition. >>>> >>>> Proposals welcome. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On 4/9/2018 11:15 PM, P.M. van Leusen wrote: >>>> >>>>> "no stability of form is required" would exclude some types of >>>>> samples, e.g. kubiena tin samples taken for microstratigraphy, >>>>> palynology, or paleomagnetism. I would advise excising this phrase. >>>>> Martijn >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 21:19 Martin Doerr < >>>>> mar...@ics.forth.gr >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear All, >>>>> >>>>> Here my proposal for a better scope note: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> S11 Amount of Matter[1] >>>>> >>>>> Subclass of: S10 >>>>> <#m_2886038186972212311__S10_Material_Substantial> Material >>>>> Substantial >>>>> >>>>> Superclass of:S12 <#m_2886038186972212311__S12_Amount_of> Amount >>>>> of Fluid >>>>> >>>>> S13 <#m_2886038186972212311__S13_Sample> Sample >>>>> >>>>> Scope note:This class comprises fixed amounts of matter specified >>>>> as some air, some water, some soil, etc., defined by the total >>>>> and integrity of their material content. In order to be able to >>>>> identify and recognize in practice one instance of S11 Amount of >>>>> Matter, some sort of confinement is needed that serves as a >>>>> constraint for the enclosed matter and the integrity of the >>>>> content, such as a bottle. In contrast to instances of E18 >>>>> Physical Thing, no stability of form is required. The content may >>>>> be put into another bottle without loosing its identity. >>>>> Subclasses may define very different identity conditions for the >>>>> integrity of the content, such as chemical composition, or the >>>>> sequence of layers of a bore core. Whereas an instance of E18 >>>>> Physical Thing may gradually change form and chemical composition >>>>> preserving its identity, such as living beings, an instance of >>>>> S11 Amount of Matter may loose its identifying features by such >>>>> processes. What matters for the identity of an instance of S1 >>>>> Amount of Matter is the preservation of a relevant composition >>>>> from the initial state of definition on. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>>>> -- >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 | >>>>> Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 | >>>>> | >>>>> Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr >>> <mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr> >>> | >>> >>>>> | >>>>> Center for Cultural Informatics | >>>>> Information Systems Laboratory | >>>>> Institute of Computer Science | >>>>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | >>>>> | >>>>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | >>>>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | >>>>> | >>>>> Web-site: >>>>> http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl >>>>> | >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Crm-sig mailing list >>>>> >>>>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 | >>>> Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 | >>>> | >>>> Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr >>>> | >>>> | >>>> Center for Cultural Informatics | >>>> Information Systems Laboratory | >>>> Institute of Computer Science | >>>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | >>>> | >>>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | >>>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | >>>> | >>>> Web-site: >>>> http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl >>>> | >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Crm-sig mailing list >>>> >>>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>> >>> -- >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 | >>> Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 | >>> | Email: >>> mar...@ics.forth.gr >>> | >>> | >>> Center for Cultural Informatics | >>> Information Systems Laboratory | >>> Institute of Computer Science | >>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | >>> | >>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | >>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | >>> | >>> Web-site: >>> http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl >>> | >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 | > Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 | > | Email: > mar...@ics.forth.gr > | > | > Center for Cultural Informatics | > Information Systems Laboratory | > Institute of Computer Science | > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | > | > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | > | > Web-site: > http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > | > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
