Hi Athina! What causes the bird to go from a to b, I guess is the simplest way to put it. Does it just happen? Is the bird just present in the event of its migration?
G On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 11:22 AM athinak <athi...@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > Hello, > > I am probably missing something here, but regarding these databases, in > which cases these animals are documented as actors? It seems that there > are documentations about births and traps and capturing events, but the > discussion is about activities carried out by them, right? From my > experience with gbif and darwincore, which a standard that is widely > used for biodiversity databases, haven't seen definitions of this kind > of relationships, but maybe I am missing things > or I misunderstood something > > BRs > Athina > > Στις 2021-10-12 10:02, George Bruseker via Crm-sig έγραψε: > > Hi all, > > > > Here are some examples of databases that deal with individual or > > collectivites of animals NOT as THINGS but as AGENTS: > > > > EMU: Pest Tracking in Museums > > > > > http://help.emu.axiell.com/v6.4/en/Topics/EMu/Traps%20and%20Pest%20Events%20modules.htm > > > > Here's a database that tracks the migratory paths of individual birds: > > > > https://nationalzoo.si.edu/migratory-birds/migratory-birds-tracking-map > > > > Here's a database that tracks orcas: > > > > https://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/killer-whale-orca-database/ > > > > Here's a database that tracks gorillas: > > > > https://www.gorillasland.com/la-plaine-zoo.php > > > > I would say that often something doesn't get documented because it is > > silenced by the information systems available (see the terrible > > gorilla database), arguably what CIDOC CRM is supposed to aid in > > getting out of (viz. Dominic's textual works issue and documenting > > context). The fact that people are forced to shoehorn identifiable > > individuals that they want to document and have discourse about into > > classes that do not suit them is for me the obvious argument for > > making classes and properties! > > > > Whether there are explicit fields for such data, the natural world is > > something which unsurprisingly Cultural Heritage is interested in and > > refers to. Orcas are, for example, highly important animals within > > different cultural systems in Canada, they are documented and they are > > documented not as things but as agents. So what is the pressing > > counter point to allowing this expressivity? That there are too many > > classes and properties. Many would make that argument about CRMinf or > > about any of our extensions. I suppose it depends on where you > > interest lies. By not opening these categories we effectively > > mute/suppress this voice. Because the limits of the world are my > > language when we choose to oppress a class we choose to oppress the > > ability to express that object. Or we indeed force the documentation > > of things that are considered agents as objects. This seems the > > greater harm to my mind. > > > > On the expertise question, I am not sure if we required a biologist to > > be able to model the notion of Birth or Death. Did we not use a middle > > level understanding of everyday objects and their documentation in > > systems in order to be support the recording of standard kinds of > > facts of interest to a researcher? Birth and Death are not high > > concepts of when conception begins or when the soul leaves the body, > > they are rough and ready everyday ideas of, there was a person and an > > event led to its end, there was a person and an event led to its > > death. How the case of modelling animals differs is not clear to me. > > Did we bring in financial experts model the payment class? On which > > issues we need an expert and on which issues not is not clear, nor is > > that expertise counts. As Rob says, having many years of experience in > > cultural heritage documentation and analysis of such systems does not > > count? I would think in basic matters like this, it goes back to the > > ground of coming to a common sense modelling in line with what is > > considered the best state of knowledge regarding the world. We KNOW > > that the best state of knowledge is not represented by the present > > modelling because agency is not just attributed to human beings. > > Therefore, we are presently deliberately out of synch with the best > > state of knowledge. I would think it behooves (pun intended) us to > > step up to the plate and get on to making it possible to express basic > > facts about the world that can be and are referenced in CH data > > systems (such as the existence of animals!). > > > > Best, > > > > George > > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 1:19 AM Pat Riva <pat.r...@concordia.ca> > > wrote: > > > >> Hi Rob, > >> Looking at the dates on Lassie and Misha, I see that they were > >> created during the phase when people were trying this under an > >> unwise modification to RDA, and not been revised since. This would > >> no longer be valid under the latest RDA. And no one has bothered to > >> propose MARC coding specific to this type of heading, leading to the > >> ones that were created being shoe-horned into the personal name > >> coding. The proportion of the huge LC names file is too small. > >> > >> As for the fictitious, that was a completely different argument > >> that has also lasted years. Stems from a difficulty in > >> distinguishing between a name and the reality behind it. > >> > >> But these two issues are frequently conflated in the library world > >> by people trying to use discussion related to why one was invalid to > >> imply the position on the other issue didn't make sense. > >> > >> The thing is that there is no problem about having a work about an > >> animal or about a character (as a concept), or have photographs, > >> films or sound recordings of an animal. but it doesn't make sense to > >> set up a relationship where these own an item, publish a > >> manifestation, write, compose or translate an expression, or create > >> a work. So the relationship is other. > >> > >> And a person can choose a pseudonym of any sort (even one that > >> evokes a pet name or is the same as a fictional character), that > >> still doesn't make the person into a pet. Same as two people having > >> the "same" name doesn't fuse them into a single human being in some > >> sort of weird siamese twin situation. > >> > >> Anyhow, I just wanted to to point out that there has been a lot of > >> ink spilled over these issues, to no real result. > >> > >> Pat > >> > >> Pat Riva > >> > >> Associate University Librarian, Collection Services > >> > >> Concordia University > >> > >> Vanier Library (VL-301-61) > >> > >> 7141 Sherbrooke Street West > >> > >> Montreal, QC H4B 1R6 > >> > >> Canada > >> > >> pat.r...@concordia.ca > >> > >> ------------------------- > >> > >> From: Robert Sanderson <azarot...@gmail.com> > >> Sent: October 11, 2021 5:16 PM > >> To: Pat Riva <pat.r...@concordia.ca> > >> Cc: Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr>; George Bruseker > >> <george.bruse...@gmail.com>; crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > >> <Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> > >> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] New Issue: Non-human Actors > >> > >> Attention This email originates from outside the concordia.ca [2] > >> domain. // Ce courriel provient de l'exterieur du domaine de > >> concordia.ca [2] > >> > >> Hi Pat, > >> > >> While that is certainly true from a model-theoretic perspective, in > >> practice authorities simply create Persons for them which is, in my > >> opinion, even worse because there is a demonstrated need which the > >> modeling is intentionally preventing. > >> > >> For example in the Library of Congress: > >> Real animal/people: > >> Lassie: https://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/nb2015016669.html [3] > >> > >> > >> Misha the Dolphin: https://id.loc.gov/rwo/agents/nb2017006372.html > >> [4] > >> > >> And fictitious: > >> Odie (from Garfield): > >> https://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/no2017122131.html [5] > >> > >> Grumpy Cat: https://id.loc.gov/rwo/agents/n2013036964.html [6] > >> > >> In ULAN, here's a racehorse/person: > >> > >> > > > https://www.getty.edu/vow/ULANFullDisplay?find=&role=&nation=&subjectid=500353456 > >> [7] > >> > >> ISNI has a dog/person called Maggie Mayhem: > >> https://isni.org/isni/ [8]0000000497302960 > >> > >> And so on. > >> > >> Rob > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 4:50 PM Pat Riva via Crm-sig > >> <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > >> > >> Just to remark that the library world discussed non-human actors > >> for many years (in the literal sense of actor as in the dogs that > >> portrayed Lassie in the TV series, or that portrayed Sykes and Paddy > >> from Midsomer Murders, somehow it is always cute dogs that are > >> brought up in the discussion). > >> > >> The desire was to list the named animal actors in the credits for > >> the cast of a film and provide access via their "real" names the > >> same as for the rest of the cast, and so using the same mechanisms > >> as for human actors. > >> > >> This sounds like it might be fine until you realize that making the > >> dog a valid LRM-E6 Agent means that it can have the full range of > >> responsibility relationships to works, expressions, manifestations > >> and items. Which becomes absurd. > >> > >> And while is it understood that one can easily film an individual > >> animal, it isn't clear that it is behaving as an actor intending to > >> create a cinematographic work in the same way that the human > >> participants. There was also no clear consensus on which sorts of > >> animals were individually interesting enough to merit this > >> treatment, rather than just being viewed as an instance of their > >> species (as in nature documentaries). > >> > >> The animal agent option was rejected in FRBR and again rejected in > >> LRM, and a LRM-E6 Agent (= E39 Actor) remains restricted to either > >> individual human beings (LRM-E7 Person) or groups of human beings > >> (LRM-E8 Collective Agent, or F55 Collective Agent in LRMoo). > >> > >> The current compromise is that the animal actors, if it is desired > >> to provide access points for them, are established as instances of a > >> subcategory of LRM-E1 Res that is disjoint from LRM-E6 Agent. There > >> was talk of creating some guidelines for this at one point, but I > >> have not followed the issue since then. > >> > >> Pat > >> > >> Pat Riva > >> > >> Associate University Librarian, Collection Services > >> > >> Concordia University > >> > >> Vanier Library (VL-301-61) > >> > >> 7141 Sherbrooke Street West > >> > >> Montreal, QC H4B 1R6 > >> > >> Canada > >> > >> pat.r...@concordia.ca > >> > >> ------------------------- > >> > >> From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr> on behalf of George > >> Bruseker via Crm-sig <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> > >> Sent: October 11, 2021 3:02 PM > >> To: Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr> > >> Cc: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> > >> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] New Issue: Non-human Actors > >> > >> Hi Martin, > >> > >> I think Rob listed in the introduction to the issue the use cases of > >> documentation of individual action of animals. > >> > >> It would seem that natural scientists don't only study species but > >> also individuals. > >> > >> Here's a smattering of pieces culled from casual reading in the past > >> few weeks with nice motivations and examples for these new classes. > >> > >> > > > https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/29/new-zealand-kea-can-use-touchscreens-but-cant-distinguish-between-real-and-virtual-worlds > >> [9] > >> > >> > > > https://www.businessinsider.com/watch-australias-google-delivery-drone-attacked-by-raven-mid-air-2021-9?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=sf-insider-inventions&utm_medium=social > >> [10] > >> > >> > > > https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/what-the-crow-knows/580726/?utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook > >> [11] > >> > >> > > > https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2021/oct/06/anicka-yi-tate-modern-turbine-hall-commission > >> [12] > >> > >> All best, > >> > >> George > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 9:44 PM Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr> > >> wrote: > >> > >> Dear Robert, > >> > >> Having collaborated with natural history museum colleagues for some > >> years and designed a research infrastructure for biodiversity in > >> Greece, I understand that they normally do not describe the actions > >> of an individual in a way that information integration on the base > >> of the individual's animal actions would be needed. They would > >> rather state the fact that an individual of type A, showed > >> individual behavior pattern B. They would integrate these data on a > >> type base, and not on an individual base. We have at FORTH converted > >> Darwin Core data of occurrences of individuals into CRMsci > >> representations. That had so far covered the needs. > >> > >> A colleague in Britain had used, I think, CRM for modelling > >> observations of Caledonian Crow observations. Since these crows do > >> not travel, the relevant information access and exchange is still on > >> a categorical level. > >> > >> Migratory birds tracking may be an application, but normally they do > >> not describe other behavior than move, in which case we can use a > >> Presence construct for the migration paths. > >> > >> Our collaboration with NHM showed that they often prefer not to use > >> CRM for their observation data. In a large European Project, we were > >> forced to cheat and rename all CRM concepts, so that they appeared > >> under a "BIO" title. > >> > >> So, in short, we need an expert that would show us practice of > >> modelling animal actions individually, and be willing to consider > >> CRM... > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> On 10/11/2021 9:13 PM, Robert Sanderson wrote: > >> > >> Could we clarify what sort of expert we're looking for to move the > >> discussion forward? In particular, natural history museums seem to > >> be at the critical intersection between CIDOC and the activities of > >> animals. I can represent the sorts of documentary evidence from that > >> side, and happy to reach out to colleagues at other NHMs. So I think > >> the first aspect is covered, but I question whether we (as modelers > >> of museum knowledge and documentation) /need/ to understand animal > >> individuality or behavior in order to take the first step of > >> describing an animal performing some action. Conversely, my > >> experience has always been that when there is something to react to, > >> it is much easier to engage with outside specialists. It is easier > >> to ask for opinions on something than it is to ask them to help come > >> up with the interdisciplinary model. > >> > >> I also don't think it makes sense to model animal actors in great > >> detail, down to the same level as the differences between classes in > >> CRMTex for example. The baseline that we need to start with is much > >> simpler. If there isn't a fine grained concept of animal > >> individuality, I don't think that means we can't model an individual > >> animal at a coarser granularity, just that we shouldn't allow the > >> ontology to describe anything that we don't understand. Even as a > >> non-biologist, I know without any hesitation that the bird laid the > >> egg in the nest in the Peabody Museum of Natural History, and that > >> the herd of dinosaurs created the footprints preserved in Dinosaur > >> State Park up the road from us. I know that a sheepdog can herd > >> sheep and makes decisions about which way to run to accomplish the > >> aim of getting the sheep into the next field (and when I was a > >> little lad played the part of such a sheepdog for my uncle in New > >> Zealand). How does the sheepdog know? Does it know that it knows? If > >> we study 100 sheepdogs individually and in groups, what do we learn > >> about sheepdog behavior? I don't care, and I don't think any other > >> museum oriented documentation system would either :) > >> > >> Rob > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 11:50 AM Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr> > >> wrote: > >> > >> Dear George, Robert, > >> > >> This makes generally sense to me as a discussion starting point. > >> However, I‘d like to remind you that our methodology requires > >> first a community practice of doing documentation about such things, > >> and second domain experts for concepts that are not our primary > >> knowledge. > >> > >> To my best knowledge, there does not exist any reliable concept of > >> what individuality means across the animal kingdom, nor what a > >> collective of such individuals is. There is an unbelievable > >> complexity to these questions. We know from experience that any > >> global widening of scope can blur all distinctions ontology > >> enginerring relies on. Therefore I'd regard it as most important to > >> find the experts first and let them speak. > >> > >> The reasons why we did not model animal actors is precisely the lack > >> of an experts group to communicate with. > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> On 10/11/2021 4:28 PM, George Bruseker wrote: > >> > >> Dear all, > >> > >> In preparation for the discussion of non-human actors as related to > >> use cases arising in Linked.Art (inter alia), Rob and I have > >> sketched some ideas back and forth to try to find a monotonic was to > >> add the agency of animals in the first instance into CRM (proceeding > >> in an empirical bottom up fashion) and then see where else we might > >> also get added in (searching for the sibling class that Martin > >> suggests and the generalization that it would need). > >> > >> The linked sketch provides a proposal for discussion. The background > >> is given already in this issue. > >> > >> > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RtKBvAH1N0G8yaE_io6hU2Z8MTBmH_8-/view?usp=sharing > >> [13] (draw.io [14]) > >> > >> > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aCEBtXjW8M0W7qCGe9ozSMeYAH7tJ3Wr/view?usp=sharing > >> [15] (png) > >> > >> Here is some argumentation. > >> > >> Up to now, CRM takes its scope as related to documenting intentional > >> acts of human beings. Its top level class then has been E39 Actor > >> which gives properties which allow the assigning of responsibility > >> for an intentional activity. It has two subclasses, E21 Person and > >> E74 Group. These two kinds of being have different behaviour, > >> therefore properties, therefore classes. > >> > >> If we expand the scope (in base or in sci or wherever) to include > >> animal agency in the first instance, then we must have a way to > >> monotonically generate this extension (we don't want to just expand > >> the scope of E39 Actor because then we will end up with rabbits > >> being responsible for financial crises and murders and all sorts of > >> nonsense). > >> > >> So we want to introduce a sibling class for E39 Actor. Call this > >> biological agent. Instances can be anything biological. This would > >> obviously be some sort of a superclass of E21 Person, since all > >> persons are biological actors as well. It would be a subclass of > >> biological object since all biological agents must be biological. > >> (but not all things biological are biological agents) > >> > >> Then we would want a general class that subsumes the agency of > >> purely human actors and biological agents. This would be our top > >> class. Here we come up with a more general notion of agency. Whereas > >> E39 Actor was declared in order to account for a 'legal persons > >> notion' of agency common to Western legal systems etc. (and is > >> perfectly adequate for the scope of CRM Base), this would be a > >> broader notion of agency. > >> > >> In order to avoid impossible philosophical arguments around self > >> consciousness, we can give a more externalist scope note / intension > >> to this class. Agency has to do with those entities which display > >> self organization and action towards an end from an external > >> perspective. This way we avoid having to know if the other really > >> has a self. If it looks like it is acting intentionally and people > >> document it as such, then so it is. > >> > >> This now gives us a super class (and eventually super properties) > >> for all agents. > >> > >> But wait... we need more. > >> > >> CRMBase distinguishes between persons and groups. Whereas persons > >> must have both agency and be individuated corporeal beings, groups > >> do not. Persons are atomic and irreducible (can't be made up of more > >> persons, can't be spread over multiple bodies / time zones). Groups > >> are composed of persons and groups. Groups are inherently > >> collective. > >> > >> If we wish then to have this same distinction reflected into the > >> biological domain we would need a class for individual biological > >> agents parallel / sibling to person and a class for collective > >> biological agents, parallel / sibling to group. > >> > >> Doing this one would then need the superclasses to subsume these > >> divisions. Hence: > >> > >> Individual Agent: subclass of Agent, superclass of individual > >> biological agent > >> > >> Collective Agent: subclass of Agent, superclass of collective > >> biological agent and human group > >> > >> This finally allows us to have: > >> > >> Individual Biological Agent: subclass of Biological Agent and > >> Individual Agent: used for individual birds, trees, and other > >> biological actors > >> > >> Collective Biological Agent: subclass of Biological Agent and > >> Collective Agent: used for flocks, forests and other group > >> biological actors (unlike human groups, such groups are inherently > >> corporeal) > >> > >> And at that point we might consider renaming our existing classes to > >> 'human' xxx > >> > >> So > >> > >> E39 Human Agent: subclass of agent, no real change in intension, the > >> kind of entity that can take action for which legal responsibility > >> can be attributed within human cultures societies > >> > >> E21 Human Person: no real change in intension but its superclass > >> becomes individual biological agent and human agent (ie an animal > >> that can be held legallly responsible for its actions) > >> > >> E74 Group no real change in intension, but it gains a super class > >> Collective Agent so it can be queried together with other agent > >> groups. > >> > >> This analysis does not get into the properties which are, of course, > >> fundamental but sketches a possible path for creating the structure > >> necessary to create this extension of scope in such a way that it > >> would respect the principle of monotonicity in revising the model > >> while allowing the growth of the model to handle the many use cases > >> of documented animal agency that fall within CH institution's > >> documentary scope. > >> > >> Hope this is a good starting point for a constructive discussion! > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> George > >> > >> -- > >> ------------------------------------ > >> Dr. Martin Doerr > >> > >> Honorary Head of the > >> > >> Center for Cultural Informatics > >> > >> Information Systems Laboratory > >> Institute of Computer Science > >> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > >> > >> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > >> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > >> > >> Vox:+30(2810)391625 > >> Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > >> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl [1] > > > > -- > > > > Rob Sanderson > > Director for Cultural Heritage Metadata > > Yale University > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------ > > Dr. Martin Doerr > > > > Honorary Head of the > > > > Center for Cultural Informatics > > > > Information Systems Laboratory > > Institute of Computer Science > > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > > > > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > > > > Vox:+30(2810)391625 > > Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl [1] > > _______________________________________________ > > Crm-sig mailing list > > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig [16] > > > > -- > > > > Rob Sanderson > > Director for Cultural Heritage Metadata > > Yale University > > > > Links: > > ------ > > [1] > > > https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ics.forth.gr%2Fisl&data=04%7C01%7Cpat.riva%40concordia.ca%7Cc79309f39b794e1f071208d98cfc5da8%7C5569f185d22f4e139850ce5b1abcd2e8%7C0%7C0%7C637695838964034138%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=o0ecAyLDntcn6tU3%2B%2F4DgFq50GBAzGW1291wi9QhdwE%3D&reserved=0 > > [2] http://concordia.ca > > [3] > > > 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