Hi Martin, all, Perhaps I am misunderstanding your comment about individuality ... but there are clearly individual animals in both my use cases and Philippe's. The twitter thread that Philippe linked to demonstrated the very common nature of museum collections having to work around the lack of a non-human agent class.
Given the lack of discussion at the SIG, the seeming lack of interest in moving this forward in a timely fashion, and the demonstrated need to document interactions between animals and other entities described in at least natural history collections, such as the original use case presented of the bird (identified and collected instance rather than type) that built the nest (again, collected instance), plus the ones from Philippe, it seems inevitable that something outside of CRM base is required. There is a precedent in CRMSci for inserting classes into the hierarchy, and as the proposal from George is monotonic, it seems an extension could define the solution as presented. As such, we can take the proposed solution back to the Linked Art group to discuss in that context and if, in the course of time, the SIG changes its opinion or comes to a solution, then the extension can always be rolled into either a SIG based extension or into base. Rob On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 4:13 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig < crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > Dear Philippe, All, > > These are good examples. Could you provide sample records? We should check > the schema used for migratory species tracking, and find an expert for > that. Presence in events may be enough. Kea, Caledonian Crow and other > behavior studies typically are done in controlled Lab environments, and > therefore do not pose a problem of historical fact integration. Integration > needs are on the kind of abilities, rather than the actions. Would need an > expert. > I think the examples show that we talk about some subset of animals that > are relevant, and do not pose problems of individuality. > > Further, I think machine events are much more important to discuss. I > suggest to talk about machine "reactions" "delayed reactions" stimulus > induced reactions, predetermined. So far, robots with random behavior are > not particularly useful. > Software is instructions, not "active" or "reactive". What make a robot > appear to have "agency" is nothing else that it work with a clock inside. > There are traps, bombs triggered by clocks, mechanical vending machines > etc, which generalize over the concept of deferred machine reactions. > > By the way, the term "agency" as a property has no good translation to > German. > > All the best, > > Martin > > On 10/14/2021 5:40 PM, Philippe Michon via Crm-sig wrote: > > Dear all, > > I am not an expert in biology, but the question has aroused a lot of > interest within my organization and I, therefore, allow myself to provide > some animal examples within museum databases. > > I don't know if this example has been mentioned before, but the animals > that received the Dickin medal are in my opinion good examples that animals > participated in wars. > > As an example, the Canadian War Museum documents a Dickin medal of a dog > named Gander <https://www.warmuseum.ca/collections/artifact/1312162>. > Although Gander is not widely documented on the museum's website, his > Wikipedia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gander_(dog)> page highlights > several of his heroic acts. > > Another similar example would be the rescue dog named Rex (also documented > on Wikipedia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_(search_and_rescue_dog)>) > which is associated with 4 items from the Imperial War Museums > <https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=&pageSize=30&media-records=all-records&style=list&filters%5BagentString%5D%5BRex+%28rescue+dog%29%5D=on>. > In addition to the Dickin medal > <https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30083092>, they also > document his harness > <https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30083091>. > > Here is a short description from the harness record: > > Harness associated with 'Rex', a British Second World War Home Front >> 'rescue dog'. 'Rex' was awarded the Dickin medal on 25 April 1945 for >> outstanding bravery in finding bomb victims, trapped under fallen debris. > > > Returning to Canada, the Canadian Museum of History documents 116 > artifacts (mostly trophies) > <https://www.historymuseum.ca/collections/?type=all&q1=all%3A%3A_contains%3A%3AAssociated%20Famous%20Animal&sort=title&order=asc&view=grid&size=24&page=1> > won by horses in various horse racing championships. The majority of horses > are identified by their names such as Northern Dancer > <https://www.historymuseum.ca/collections/artifact/2324619> for > example. His biography is really well documented on Wikipedia > <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Dancer> again. > > It also seems important to me to underline that the information on these > horses is currently recorded in the "Person/Institution" field with an > "Associated Famous Animal" tag. I don't know the reasons for this choice, > but I found the association between person and animal worth mentioning and > probably questioning. > > I hope these few examples highlight the desire of some institutions to > document the participation of specific animals in documented events. > > Finally, I also wanted to mention this Twitter thread > <https://twitter.com/TMPHopkins1/status/1229754120699072513?form=MY01SV&OCID=MY01SV>where > a few people are discussing the best way to describe a goat within their > organizations. > > Best, > Philippe > > Le mar. 12 oct. 2021 à 04:33, George Bruseker via Crm-sig < > crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> a écrit : > >> Hi Athina! >> >> What causes the bird to go from a to b, I guess is the simplest way to >> put it. Does it just happen? Is the bird just present in the event of its >> migration? >> >> G >> >> On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 11:22 AM athinak <athi...@ics.forth.gr> wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I am probably missing something here, but regarding these databases, in >>> which cases these animals are documented as actors? It seems that there >>> are documentations about births and traps and capturing events, but the >>> discussion is about activities carried out by them, right? From my >>> experience with gbif and darwincore, which a standard that is widely >>> used for biodiversity databases, haven't seen definitions of this kind >>> of relationships, but maybe I am missing things >>> or I misunderstood something >>> >>> BRs >>> Athina >>> >>> Στις 2021-10-12 10:02, George Bruseker via Crm-sig έγραψε: >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > Here are some examples of databases that deal with individual or >>> > collectivites of animals NOT as THINGS but as AGENTS: >>> > >>> > EMU: Pest Tracking in Museums >>> > >>> > >>> http://help.emu.axiell.com/v6.4/en/Topics/EMu/Traps%20and%20Pest%20Events%20modules.htm >>> > >>> > Here's a database that tracks the migratory paths of individual birds: >>> > >>> > >>> https://nationalzoo.si.edu/migratory-birds/migratory-birds-tracking-map >>> > >>> > Here's a database that tracks orcas: >>> > >>> > https://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/killer-whale-orca-database/ >>> > >>> > Here's a database that tracks gorillas: >>> > >>> > https://www.gorillasland.com/la-plaine-zoo.php >>> > >>> > I would say that often something doesn't get documented because it is >>> > silenced by the information systems available (see the terrible >>> > gorilla database), arguably what CIDOC CRM is supposed to aid in >>> > getting out of (viz. Dominic's textual works issue and documenting >>> > context). The fact that people are forced to shoehorn identifiable >>> > individuals that they want to document and have discourse about into >>> > classes that do not suit them is for me the obvious argument for >>> > making classes and properties! >>> > >>> > Whether there are explicit fields for such data, the natural world is >>> > something which unsurprisingly Cultural Heritage is interested in and >>> > refers to. Orcas are, for example, highly important animals within >>> > different cultural systems in Canada, they are documented and they are >>> > documented not as things but as agents. So what is the pressing >>> > counter point to allowing this expressivity? That there are too many >>> > classes and properties. Many would make that argument about CRMinf or >>> > about any of our extensions. I suppose it depends on where you >>> > interest lies. By not opening these categories we effectively >>> > mute/suppress this voice. Because the limits of the world are my >>> > language when we choose to oppress a class we choose to oppress the >>> > ability to express that object. Or we indeed force the documentation >>> > of things that are considered agents as objects. This seems the >>> > greater harm to my mind. >>> > >>> > On the expertise question, I am not sure if we required a biologist to >>> > be able to model the notion of Birth or Death. Did we not use a middle >>> > level understanding of everyday objects and their documentation in >>> > systems in order to be support the recording of standard kinds of >>> > facts of interest to a researcher? Birth and Death are not high >>> > concepts of when conception begins or when the soul leaves the body, >>> > they are rough and ready everyday ideas of, there was a person and an >>> > event led to its end, there was a person and an event led to its >>> > death. How the case of modelling animals differs is not clear to me. >>> > Did we bring in financial experts model the payment class? On which >>> > issues we need an expert and on which issues not is not clear, nor is >>> > that expertise counts. As Rob says, having many years of experience in >>> > cultural heritage documentation and analysis of such systems does not >>> > count? I would think in basic matters like this, it goes back to the >>> > ground of coming to a common sense modelling in line with what is >>> > considered the best state of knowledge regarding the world. We KNOW >>> > that the best state of knowledge is not represented by the present >>> > modelling because agency is not just attributed to human beings. >>> > Therefore, we are presently deliberately out of synch with the best >>> > state of knowledge. I would think it behooves (pun intended) us to >>> > step up to the plate and get on to making it possible to express basic >>> > facts about the world that can be and are referenced in CH data >>> > systems (such as the existence of animals!). >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > >>> > George >>> > >>> > On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 1:19 AM Pat Riva <pat.r...@concordia.ca> >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> >> Hi Rob, >>> >> Looking at the dates on Lassie and Misha, I see that they were >>> >> created during the phase when people were trying this under an >>> >> unwise modification to RDA, and not been revised since. This would >>> >> no longer be valid under the latest RDA. And no one has bothered to >>> >> propose MARC coding specific to this type of heading, leading to the >>> >> ones that were created being shoe-horned into the personal name >>> >> coding. The proportion of the huge LC names file is too small. >>> >> >>> >> As for the fictitious, that was a completely different argument >>> >> that has also lasted years. Stems from a difficulty in >>> >> distinguishing between a name and the reality behind it. >>> >> >>> >> But these two issues are frequently conflated in the library world >>> >> by people trying to use discussion related to why one was invalid to >>> >> imply the position on the other issue didn't make sense. >>> >> >>> >> The thing is that there is no problem about having a work about an >>> >> animal or about a character (as a concept), or have photographs, >>> >> films or sound recordings of an animal. but it doesn't make sense to >>> >> set up a relationship where these own an item, publish a >>> >> manifestation, write, compose or translate an expression, or create >>> >> a work. So the relationship is other. >>> >> >>> >> And a person can choose a pseudonym of any sort (even one that >>> >> evokes a pet name or is the same as a fictional character), that >>> >> still doesn't make the person into a pet. Same as two people having >>> >> the "same" name doesn't fuse them into a single human being in some >>> >> sort of weird siamese twin situation. >>> >> >>> >> Anyhow, I just wanted to to point out that there has been a lot of >>> >> ink spilled over these issues, to no real result. >>> >> >>> >> Pat >>> >> >>> >> Pat Riva >>> >> >>> >> Associate University Librarian, Collection Services >>> >> >>> >> Concordia University >>> >> >>> >> Vanier Library (VL-301-61) >>> >> >>> >> 7141 Sherbrooke Street West >>> >> >>> >> Montreal, QC H4B 1R6 >>> >> >>> >> Canada >>> >> >>> >> pat.r...@concordia.ca >>> >> >>> >> ------------------------- >>> >> >>> >> From: Robert Sanderson <azarot...@gmail.com> >>> >> Sent: October 11, 2021 5:16 PM >>> >> To: Pat Riva <pat.r...@concordia.ca> >>> >> Cc: Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr>; George Bruseker >>> >> <george.bruse...@gmail.com>; crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>> >> <Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> >>> >> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] New Issue: Non-human Actors >>> >> >>> >> Attention This email originates from outside the concordia.ca [2] >>> >> domain. // Ce courriel provient de l'exterieur du domaine de >>> >> concordia.ca [2] >>> >> >>> >> Hi Pat, >>> >> >>> >> While that is certainly true from a model-theoretic perspective, in >>> >> practice authorities simply create Persons for them which is, in my >>> >> opinion, even worse because there is a demonstrated need which the >>> >> modeling is intentionally preventing. >>> >> >>> >> For example in the Library of Congress: >>> >> Real animal/people: >>> >> Lassie: https://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/nb2015016669.html [3] >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Misha the Dolphin: https://id.loc.gov/rwo/agents/nb2017006372.html >>> >> [4] >>> >> >>> >> And fictitious: >>> >> Odie (from Garfield): >>> >> https://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/no2017122131.html [5] >>> >> >>> >> Grumpy Cat: https://id.loc.gov/rwo/agents/n2013036964.html [6] >>> >> >>> >> In ULAN, here's a racehorse/person: >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> https://www.getty.edu/vow/ULANFullDisplay?find=&role=&nation=&subjectid=500353456 >>> >> [7] >>> >> >>> >> ISNI has a dog/person called Maggie Mayhem: >>> >> https://isni.org/isni/ [8]0000000497302960 >>> >> >>> >> And so on. >>> >> >>> >> Rob >>> >> >>> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 4:50 PM Pat Riva via Crm-sig >>> >> <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Just to remark that the library world discussed non-human actors >>> >> for many years (in the literal sense of actor as in the dogs that >>> >> portrayed Lassie in the TV series, or that portrayed Sykes and Paddy >>> >> from Midsomer Murders, somehow it is always cute dogs that are >>> >> brought up in the discussion). >>> >> >>> >> The desire was to list the named animal actors in the credits for >>> >> the cast of a film and provide access via their "real" names the >>> >> same as for the rest of the cast, and so using the same mechanisms >>> >> as for human actors. >>> >> >>> >> This sounds like it might be fine until you realize that making the >>> >> dog a valid LRM-E6 Agent means that it can have the full range of >>> >> responsibility relationships to works, expressions, manifestations >>> >> and items. Which becomes absurd. >>> >> >>> >> And while is it understood that one can easily film an individual >>> >> animal, it isn't clear that it is behaving as an actor intending to >>> >> create a cinematographic work in the same way that the human >>> >> participants. There was also no clear consensus on which sorts of >>> >> animals were individually interesting enough to merit this >>> >> treatment, rather than just being viewed as an instance of their >>> >> species (as in nature documentaries). >>> >> >>> >> The animal agent option was rejected in FRBR and again rejected in >>> >> LRM, and a LRM-E6 Agent (= E39 Actor) remains restricted to either >>> >> individual human beings (LRM-E7 Person) or groups of human beings >>> >> (LRM-E8 Collective Agent, or F55 Collective Agent in LRMoo). >>> >> >>> >> The current compromise is that the animal actors, if it is desired >>> >> to provide access points for them, are established as instances of a >>> >> subcategory of LRM-E1 Res that is disjoint from LRM-E6 Agent. There >>> >> was talk of creating some guidelines for this at one point, but I >>> >> have not followed the issue since then. >>> >> >>> >> Pat >>> >> >>> >> Pat Riva >>> >> >>> >> Associate University Librarian, Collection Services >>> >> >>> >> Concordia University >>> >> >>> >> Vanier Library (VL-301-61) >>> >> >>> >> 7141 Sherbrooke Street West >>> >> >>> >> Montreal, QC H4B 1R6 >>> >> >>> >> Canada >>> >> >>> >> pat.r...@concordia.ca >>> >> >>> >> ------------------------- >>> >> >>> >> From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr> on behalf of George >>> >> Bruseker via Crm-sig <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> >>> >> Sent: October 11, 2021 3:02 PM >>> >> To: Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr> >>> >> Cc: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> >>> >> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] New Issue: Non-human Actors >>> >> >>> >> Hi Martin, >>> >> >>> >> I think Rob listed in the introduction to the issue the use cases of >>> >> documentation of individual action of animals. >>> >> >>> >> It would seem that natural scientists don't only study species but >>> >> also individuals. >>> >> >>> >> Here's a smattering of pieces culled from casual reading in the past >>> >> few weeks with nice motivations and examples for these new classes. >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/29/new-zealand-kea-can-use-touchscreens-but-cant-distinguish-between-real-and-virtual-worlds >>> >> [9] >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> https://www.businessinsider.com/watch-australias-google-delivery-drone-attacked-by-raven-mid-air-2021-9?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=sf-insider-inventions&utm_medium=social >>> >> [10] >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/what-the-crow-knows/580726/?utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook >>> >> [11] >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2021/oct/06/anicka-yi-tate-modern-turbine-hall-commission >>> >> [12] >>> >> >>> >> All best, >>> >> >>> >> George >>> >> >>> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 9:44 PM Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr> >>> >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Dear Robert, >>> >> >>> >> Having collaborated with natural history museum colleagues for some >>> >> years and designed a research infrastructure for biodiversity in >>> >> Greece, I understand that they normally do not describe the actions >>> >> of an individual in a way that information integration on the base >>> >> of the individual's animal actions would be needed. They would >>> >> rather state the fact that an individual of type A, showed >>> >> individual behavior pattern B. They would integrate these data on a >>> >> type base, and not on an individual base. We have at FORTH converted >>> >> Darwin Core data of occurrences of individuals into CRMsci >>> >> representations. That had so far covered the needs. >>> >> >>> >> A colleague in Britain had used, I think, CRM for modelling >>> >> observations of Caledonian Crow observations. Since these crows do >>> >> not travel, the relevant information access and exchange is still on >>> >> a categorical level. >>> >> >>> >> Migratory birds tracking may be an application, but normally they do >>> >> not describe other behavior than move, in which case we can use a >>> >> Presence construct for the migration paths. >>> >> >>> >> Our collaboration with NHM showed that they often prefer not to use >>> >> CRM for their observation data. In a large European Project, we were >>> >> forced to cheat and rename all CRM concepts, so that they appeared >>> >> under a "BIO" title. >>> >> >>> >> So, in short, we need an expert that would show us practice of >>> >> modelling animal actions individually, and be willing to consider >>> >> CRM... >>> >> >>> >> Cheers, >>> >> >>> >> Martin >>> >> >>> >> On 10/11/2021 9:13 PM, Robert Sanderson wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Could we clarify what sort of expert we're looking for to move the >>> >> discussion forward? In particular, natural history museums seem to >>> >> be at the critical intersection between CIDOC and the activities of >>> >> animals. I can represent the sorts of documentary evidence from that >>> >> side, and happy to reach out to colleagues at other NHMs. So I think >>> >> the first aspect is covered, but I question whether we (as modelers >>> >> of museum knowledge and documentation) /need/ to understand animal >>> >> individuality or behavior in order to take the first step of >>> >> describing an animal performing some action. Conversely, my >>> >> experience has always been that when there is something to react to, >>> >> it is much easier to engage with outside specialists. It is easier >>> >> to ask for opinions on something than it is to ask them to help come >>> >> up with the interdisciplinary model. >>> >> >>> >> I also don't think it makes sense to model animal actors in great >>> >> detail, down to the same level as the differences between classes in >>> >> CRMTex for example. The baseline that we need to start with is much >>> >> simpler. If there isn't a fine grained concept of animal >>> >> individuality, I don't think that means we can't model an individual >>> >> animal at a coarser granularity, just that we shouldn't allow the >>> >> ontology to describe anything that we don't understand. Even as a >>> >> non-biologist, I know without any hesitation that the bird laid the >>> >> egg in the nest in the Peabody Museum of Natural History, and that >>> >> the herd of dinosaurs created the footprints preserved in Dinosaur >>> >> State Park up the road from us. I know that a sheepdog can herd >>> >> sheep and makes decisions about which way to run to accomplish the >>> >> aim of getting the sheep into the next field (and when I was a >>> >> little lad played the part of such a sheepdog for my uncle in New >>> >> Zealand). How does the sheepdog know? Does it know that it knows? If >>> >> we study 100 sheepdogs individually and in groups, what do we learn >>> >> about sheepdog behavior? I don't care, and I don't think any other >>> >> museum oriented documentation system would either :) >>> >> >>> >> Rob >>> >> >>> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 11:50 AM Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr> >>> >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Dear George, Robert, >>> >> >>> >> This makes generally sense to me as a discussion starting point. >>> >> However, I‘d like to remind you that our methodology requires >>> >> first a community practice of doing documentation about such things, >>> >> and second domain experts for concepts that are not our primary >>> >> knowledge. >>> >> >>> >> To my best knowledge, there does not exist any reliable concept of >>> >> what individuality means across the animal kingdom, nor what a >>> >> collective of such individuals is. There is an unbelievable >>> >> complexity to these questions. We know from experience that any >>> >> global widening of scope can blur all distinctions ontology >>> >> enginerring relies on. Therefore I'd regard it as most important to >>> >> find the experts first and let them speak. >>> >> >>> >> The reasons why we did not model animal actors is precisely the lack >>> >> of an experts group to communicate with. >>> >> >>> >> Best, >>> >> >>> >> Martin >>> >> >>> >> On 10/11/2021 4:28 PM, George Bruseker wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Dear all, >>> >> >>> >> In preparation for the discussion of non-human actors as related to >>> >> use cases arising in Linked.Art (inter alia), Rob and I have >>> >> sketched some ideas back and forth to try to find a monotonic was to >>> >> add the agency of animals in the first instance into CRM (proceeding >>> >> in an empirical bottom up fashion) and then see where else we might >>> >> also get added in (searching for the sibling class that Martin >>> >> suggests and the generalization that it would need). >>> >> >>> >> The linked sketch provides a proposal for discussion. The background >>> >> is given already in this issue. >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RtKBvAH1N0G8yaE_io6hU2Z8MTBmH_8-/view?usp=sharing >>> >> [13] (draw.io [14]) >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aCEBtXjW8M0W7qCGe9ozSMeYAH7tJ3Wr/view?usp=sharing >>> >> [15] (png) >>> >> >>> >> Here is some argumentation. >>> >> >>> >> Up to now, CRM takes its scope as related to documenting intentional >>> >> acts of human beings. Its top level class then has been E39 Actor >>> >> which gives properties which allow the assigning of responsibility >>> >> for an intentional activity. It has two subclasses, E21 Person and >>> >> E74 Group. These two kinds of being have different behaviour, >>> >> therefore properties, therefore classes. >>> >> >>> >> If we expand the scope (in base or in sci or wherever) to include >>> >> animal agency in the first instance, then we must have a way to >>> >> monotonically generate this extension (we don't want to just expand >>> >> the scope of E39 Actor because then we will end up with rabbits >>> >> being responsible for financial crises and murders and all sorts of >>> >> nonsense). >>> >> >>> >> So we want to introduce a sibling class for E39 Actor. Call this >>> >> biological agent. Instances can be anything biological. This would >>> >> obviously be some sort of a superclass of E21 Person, since all >>> >> persons are biological actors as well. It would be a subclass of >>> >> biological object since all biological agents must be biological. >>> >> (but not all things biological are biological agents) >>> >> >>> >> Then we would want a general class that subsumes the agency of >>> >> purely human actors and biological agents. This would be our top >>> >> class. Here we come up with a more general notion of agency. Whereas >>> >> E39 Actor was declared in order to account for a 'legal persons >>> >> notion' of agency common to Western legal systems etc. (and is >>> >> perfectly adequate for the scope of CRM Base), this would be a >>> >> broader notion of agency. >>> >> >>> >> In order to avoid impossible philosophical arguments around self >>> >> consciousness, we can give a more externalist scope note / intension >>> >> to this class. Agency has to do with those entities which display >>> >> self organization and action towards an end from an external >>> >> perspective. This way we avoid having to know if the other really >>> >> has a self. If it looks like it is acting intentionally and people >>> >> document it as such, then so it is. >>> >> >>> >> This now gives us a super class (and eventually super properties) >>> >> for all agents. >>> >> >>> >> But wait... we need more. >>> >> >>> >> CRMBase distinguishes between persons and groups. Whereas persons >>> >> must have both agency and be individuated corporeal beings, groups >>> >> do not. Persons are atomic and irreducible (can't be made up of more >>> >> persons, can't be spread over multiple bodies / time zones). Groups >>> >> are composed of persons and groups. Groups are inherently >>> >> collective. >>> >> >>> >> If we wish then to have this same distinction reflected into the >>> >> biological domain we would need a class for individual biological >>> >> agents parallel / sibling to person and a class for collective >>> >> biological agents, parallel / sibling to group. >>> >> >>> >> Doing this one would then need the superclasses to subsume these >>> >> divisions. Hence: >>> >> >>> >> Individual Agent: subclass of Agent, superclass of individual >>> >> biological agent >>> >> >>> >> Collective Agent: subclass of Agent, superclass of collective >>> >> biological agent and human group >>> >> >>> >> This finally allows us to have: >>> >> >>> >> Individual Biological Agent: subclass of Biological Agent and >>> >> Individual Agent: used for individual birds, trees, and other >>> >> biological actors >>> >> >>> >> Collective Biological Agent: subclass of Biological Agent and >>> >> Collective Agent: used for flocks, forests and other group >>> >> biological actors (unlike human groups, such groups are inherently >>> >> corporeal) >>> >> >>> >> And at that point we might consider renaming our existing classes to >>> >> 'human' xxx >>> >> >>> >> So >>> >> >>> >> E39 Human Agent: subclass of agent, no real change in intension, the >>> >> kind of entity that can take action for which legal responsibility >>> >> can be attributed within human cultures societies >>> >> >>> >> E21 Human Person: no real change in intension but its superclass >>> >> becomes individual biological agent and human agent (ie an animal >>> >> that can be held legallly responsible for its actions) >>> >> >>> >> E74 Group no real change in intension, but it gains a super class >>> >> Collective Agent so it can be queried together with other agent >>> >> groups. >>> >> >>> >> This analysis does not get into the properties which are, of course, >>> >> fundamental but sketches a possible path for creating the structure >>> >> necessary to create this extension of scope in such a way that it >>> >> would respect the principle of monotonicity in revising the model >>> >> while allowing the growth of the model to handle the many use cases >>> >> of documented animal agency that fall within CH institution's >>> >> documentary scope. >>> >> >>> >> Hope this is a good starting point for a constructive discussion! >>> >> >>> >> Best, >>> >> >>> >> George >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> ------------------------------------ >>> >> Dr. Martin Doerr >>> >> >>> >> Honorary Head of the >>> >> >>> >> Center for Cultural Informatics >>> >> >>> >> Information Systems Laboratory >>> >> Institute of Computer Science >>> >> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) >>> >> >>> >> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, >>> >> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece >>> >> >>> >> Vox:+30(2810)391625 >>> >> Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr >>> >> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl [1] >>> > >>> > -- >>> > >>> > Rob Sanderson >>> > Director for Cultural Heritage Metadata >>> > Yale University >>> > >>> > -- >>> > ------------------------------------ >>> > Dr. Martin Doerr >>> > >>> > Honorary Head of the >>> > >>> > Center for Cultural Informatics >>> > >>> > Information Systems Laboratory >>> > Institute of Computer Science >>> > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) >>> > >>> > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, >>> > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece >>> > >>> > Vox:+30(2810)391625 >>> > Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr >>> > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl [1] >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Crm-sig mailing list >>> > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>> > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig [16] >>> > >>> > -- >>> > >>> > Rob Sanderson >>> > Director for Cultural Heritage Metadata >>> > Yale University >>> > >>> > Links: >>> > ------ >>> > [1] >>> > >>> https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ics.forth.gr%2Fisl&data=04%7C01%7Cpat.riva%40concordia.ca%7Cc79309f39b794e1f071208d98cfc5da8%7C5569f185d22f4e139850ce5b1abcd2e8%7C0%7C0%7C637695838964034138%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=o0ecAyLDntcn6tU3%2B%2F4DgFq50GBAzGW1291wi9QhdwE%3D&reserved=0 >>> > [2] http://concordia.ca >>> > [3] >>> > >>> 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https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.ics.forth.gr%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fcrm-sig&data=04%7C01%7Cpat.riva%40concordia.ca%7Cc79309f39b794e1f071208d98cfc5da8%7C5569f185d22f4e139850ce5b1abcd2e8%7C0%7C0%7C637695838964044131%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=SHxfxsqdh5weZGetloicBmguvo1oTGPu3iJyDtjxIhc%3D&reserved=0 >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Crm-sig mailing list >>> > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>> > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> > > > -- > > *Philippe Michon* > > (he/il – https://name.pn/philippe-michon) > > > Semantic Web Analyst > Canadian Heritage Information Network (CHIN) > Department of Canadian Heritage, Government of Canada > 1030 Innes Road, Ottawa (Ontario) K1B 4S7 > philippe.mic...@pch.gc.ca > > illipm...@gmail.com > Tel: 613-998-3721 ext. 225 or 1-800-520-2446 > > Analyste en web sémantique > Réseau canadien d'information sur le patrimoine (RCIP) > Ministère du Patrimoine canadien, Gouvernement du Canada > 1030 chemin Innes, Ottawa (Ontario), K1B 4S7 > philippe.mic...@pch.gc.ca > > illipm...@gmail.com > Tél. : 613-998-3721 poste 225 ou 1-800-520-2446 > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing > listCrm-sig@ics.forth.grhttp://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > > -- > ------------------------------------ > Dr. Martin Doerr > > Honorary Head of the > Center for Cultural Informatics > > Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > > Vox:+30(2810)391625 > Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > -- Rob Sanderson Director for Cultural Heritage Metadata Yale University
_______________________________________________ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
