Dear Franca,
The only answer may be 42. Based on my experience from studying 600 excavation
databases in depth and also from the Museum project 20 years ago where we
constructed artefact databases for the university museum, and converted data
into them, I have concluded that formal ontologies are good for indexing data
and interlink the data, but textual descriptions must be obligatory.
Best,
Christian-Emil
________________________________
From: Franco Niccolucci <franco.niccolu...@gmail.com>
Sent: 10 March 2023 10:07
To: Christian-Emil Smith Ore
Cc: crm-sig
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Relation between E28 Conceptual Object and E74 Group
Dear Christina-Emile,
> Many cultural phenomena are better documented by free text essays.
Of course. Paraphrasing Borges ("Del rigor en la ciencia” 1946), the most
accurate ontology of the world is the world itself, including also this
ontology (as part of the world) in such world ontology.
> CRM [...] should be based on documented practice in the various disciplines
> and a be a formalization of this documented practice.
The practice of attaching intangible values to physical things to confirm that
these are heritage assets is well documented by UNESCO.
For example, the criteria for defining "Assisi, the Basilica of San Francesco
and Other Franciscan Sites” a World Heritage Site include:
“Criterion (vi) Being the birthplace of the Franciscan Order, Assisi has from
the Middle Ages been closely associated with the cult and diffusion of the
Franciscan movement in the world, focusing on the universal message of peace
and tolerance even to other religions or beliefs."
All UNESCO WHS criteria include similar statements relating the asset (or
“property”, as they call them) to intangible aspects.
I appreciate you and Martin qualified my question as “interesting”. As with
most questions, the answer would probably be even more interesting, but
unfortunately I have none.
Best,
Franco
Prof. Franco Niccolucci
Director, VAST-LAB
PIN - U. of Florence
President, ARIADNE Research Infrastructure AISBL
Chief Technology Officer 4CH
Editor-in-Chief
ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH)
Piazza Ciardi 25
59100 Prato, Italy
> Il giorno 10 mar 2023, alle ore 08:42, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig
> <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> ha scritto:
>
>
> It is as I wrote, an interesting question. The idea behind the development of
> the CRM is that it should be based on documented practice in the various
> disciplines and a be a formalization of this documented practice. It is not
> meant to be a general formal description of everything going on in the
> entire world. The use of fformal ontologies tends to push the documentation
> into structuralism. Structuralism is well suited as a basis for many things,
> but not all. Many cultural phenomena are better documented by free text
> essays.
>
> Best,
> Christian-Emil
>
> From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Franco Niccolucci
> via Crm-sig <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>
> Sent: 10 March 2023 07:48
> To: Martin Doerr
> Cc: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Relation between E28 Conceptual Object and E74 Group
> Thank you all for your comments and contributions.
>
> None of the solutions proposed so far convinces me.
>
> Intangible heritage (Tango, for instance) is not the cumulation of many/all
> related activities/actors (Tango performances, Tango dancers, etc), which
> instead are related because they are all manifestations/performers of the
> same abstract concept.
>
> Rebetiko is even more difficult to characterize as it involves a particular
> lifestyle and individuals - the mangas in the past, perhaps now more a mood
> than a social class - and is often associated with the bouzouki. But of
> course it is not the mere addition of all this.
>
> I am not suggesting to study such concepts in greater detail, it may be
> off-topic.
>
> I think however that it is impossible to document monuments without
> addressing their intangible component. This came up when dealing with
> conservation: it is not just a matter to maintain their physical state,
> preserving their E3 Condition State which according to its scope note
> "describes the prevailing PHYSICAL condition of any material object”. Opening
> a Mac Donald in the Coliseum would not alter too much its E3, but would
> probably depreciate its value as a monument.
>
> best
>
> Franco
>
>
>
>
>
> Prof. Franco Niccolucci
> Director, VAST-LAB
> PIN - U. of Florence
> President, ARIADNE Research Infrastructure AISBL
> Chief Technology Officer 4CH
>
> Editor-in-Chief
> ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH)
>
> Piazza Ciardi 25
> 59100 Prato, Italy
>
>
>
>
> > Il giorno 9 mar 2023, alle ore 20:23, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig
> > <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> ha scritto:
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> > I suggest to make a case study with Rebetiko. It is a relatively confined
> > tradition and living. We have access to a lot of material here in Greece.
> > By the way, we met a young lady from India who came to Greece and has
> > learned to play Rebetiko.
> >
> > I think we should look at phenomena and people influencing each other,
> > protagonists, etc., of varying types appearing in a cultural space and
> > time, in particular concentrating at specific places and times. People
> > meeting in these performances and carrying the idea forward. A certain
> > "density" keeps it alive, like a species surviving. I agree with Franco.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > On 3/9/2023 8:00 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote:
> >> Dear All,
> >>
> >> I think this is quite overstretching what an activity is. Of course we can
> >> make quick and dirty use of any class. I cannot imagine, how an "All Tango
> >> Performances" could be associated with a clear identity, unity and
> >> distinction from others. This would mean that any type of activity becomes
> >> an activity, isn't it? All specializations and generalizations would then
> >> be identical with part-of of activities?
> >>
> >> How would you then give an account of different strands of such
> >> traditions? This model virtually denies evolution and variation. I think
> >> that needs serious thought and a model which provides a much subtler
> >> relation between an idea, its execution and its evolution.
> >>
> >> Note, that any type is a Conceptual Object. Creating Tango as an E55 Type
> >> is a creation. I'd suggest to look at the new properties connecting Types
> >> with periods in which they appear. The challenge is, for me, not to
> >> provide a place to say "Tango is here", but to relate individual
> >> activities, performances, music, fashions, costumes etc along lines of
> >> evolution, variation and cross-fertalization.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Martin
> >>
> >> On 3/9/2023 6:33 PM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote:
> >>> I'm posting the following response text from Steve because the mailing
> >>> list software tosses his messages out:
> >>>
> >>> Just a quick thought. As you mention a set of individual performances
> >>> (E7 Activities) you could say that the individual performances (E7
> >>> Activity: performance of Tango on particular day/time and at a particular
> >>> place) P9i forms part of a master E7 Activity (All Tango Performances).
> >>> E7 Activity (All Tango Performances) P16 used specific object E28
> >>> Conceptual Object(Intangible Heritage of the Tango). E7 Activity (All
> >>> Tango Performances) P14 carried out by E39 Actor(Tango Community)
> >>> You could also say:
> >>> E28 Conceptual Object(Intangible Heritage of the Tango) P94i was created
> >>> by E65 Creation P14 carried out by E39 Actor(Tango Community)
> >>> This would make the community both the creator and performer of the
> >>> intangible heritage: which I believe is the current "best practice".
> >>> The timespan of the creation is of course open-ended as these are
> >>> "living" traditions.
> >>> HTH
> >>> SdS
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 3:57 PM George Bruseker <george@takin.solutions>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> I'd use the term 'forms of life' instead of 'intangible heritage'. Then
> >>> the likely closest CRM concept is E5 Event, at least if you want to be
> >>> able to associate to actors in any direct way.
> >>>
> >>> E5 Event "Tango" p11 had participant E74 Group.
> >>>
> >>> Probably to be more expressive one would need an extension for social
> >>> life!
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 3:18 PM Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig
> >>> <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote:
> >>> It is a good question. Also note that documentation of intangible
> >>> cultural heritage is in most cases ttangible. According to UNESCO
> >>> intangible cultural heritage is defined as
> >>> Article 2 – Definitions
> >>> For the purposes of this Convention,
> >>> 1. The “intangible cultural heritage” means the practices,
> >>> representations, expressions, knowledge, skills – as well as the
> >>> instruments, objects, artefacts and cultural spaces associated therewith
> >>> – that communities, groups and, in some cases, individuals recognize as
> >>> part of their cultural heritage. This intangible cultural heritage,
> >>> transmitted from generation to generation, is constantly recreated by
> >>> communities and groups in response to their environment, their
> >>> interaction with nature and their history, and provides them with a sense
> >>> of identity and continuity, thus promoting respect for cultural diversity
> >>> and human creativity. For the purposes of this Convention, consideration
> >>> will be given solely to such intangible cultural heritage as is
> >>> compatible with existing international human rights instruments, as well
> >>> as with the requirements of mutual respect among communities, groups and
> >>> individuals, and of sustainable development.
> >>>
> >>> 2. The “intangible cultural heritage”, as defined in paragraph 1 above,
> >>> is manifested inter alia in the following domains:
> >>> (a) oral traditions and expressions, including language as a vehicle of
> >>> the intangible cultural heritage;
> >>> (b) performing arts;
> >>> (c) social practices, rituals and festive events;
> >>> (d) knowledge and practices concerning nature and the universe;
> >>> (e) traditional craftsmanship.
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Christian-Emil
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Franco
> >>> Niccolucci via Crm-sig <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>
> >>> Sent: 09 March 2023 14:54
> >>> To: crm-sig
> >>> Subject: [Crm-sig] Relation between E28 Conceptual Object and E74 Group
> >>> In the UNESCO List of World Intangible Heritage many items (= E28
> >>> Conceptual Object) are referred to specific gatherings of people -
> >>> commonly named “communities” in everyday's language - such as:
> >>>
> >>> Tango -> Argentina & Uruguay
> >>> Rebetiko -> Greece
> >>> Opera dei pupi (puppet theatre) -> Italy (Sicily)
> >>>
> >>> These geographic names in reality mean the people, the inhabitants (maybe
> >>> not all of them): Argentinians, Uruguayos, Greeks, Sicilians i.e. the
> >>> social groups who are the custodians/performers of these traditions.
> >>>
> >>> So two classes are involved
> >>> 1) The group (Argentinians, Greeks, etc.) = E39 Actor
> >>> 2) The conceptual object representing the intangible heritage (Tango,
> >>> Rebetiko, etc.) = E28 Conceptual Object
> >>>
> >>> Note that intangibile heritage is NOT an activity, it is the abstraction
> >>> of a set of activities and the way in which they are traditionally
> >>> performed, which manifests through events/activities i.e. individual
> >>> performances.
> >>>
> >>> Which property - if any - can be used to relate such E39 Actors to the
> >>> corresponding E28?
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for any help on the above.
> >>>
> >>> Franco
> >>>
> >>> Prof. Franco Niccolucci
> >>> Director, VAST-LAB
> >>> PIN - U. of Florence
> >>> President, ARIADNE Research Infrastructure AISBL
> >>> Chief Technology Officer 4CH
> >>>
> >>> Editor-in-Chief
> >>> ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH)
> >>>
> >>> Piazza Ciardi 25
> >>> 59100 Prato, Italy
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Crm-sig mailing list
> >>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
> >>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Crm-sig mailing list
> >>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
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> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Crm-sig mailing list
> >>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
> >>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ------------------------------------
> >> Dr. Martin Doerr
> >>
> >> Honorary Head of the
> >> Center for Cultural Informatics
> >>
> >> Information Systems Laboratory
> >> Institute of Computer Science
> >> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
> >>
> >> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
> >> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
> >>
> >> Vox:+30(2810)391625
> >> Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr
> >> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Crm-sig mailing list
> >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
> >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------
> > Dr. Martin Doerr
> >
> > Honorary Head of the
> > Center for Cultural Informatics
> >
> > Information Systems Laboratory
> > Institute of Computer Science
> > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
> >
> > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
> > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
> >
> > Vox:+30(2810)391625
> > Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr
> > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
> > _______________________________________________
> > Crm-sig mailing list
> > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
> > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>
>
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