The duality of primitives as being in and out of of the universe of a discourse is a problem
On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 9:45 AM Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig < crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of course > there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout". The questions > about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82. > > So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94 Space > Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the side of "Period > is a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines but is not a Spacetime > Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and > its subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the > CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of > Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway. > > > > Am 01.10.2023 um 14:09 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig < > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>: > > > > Some additional questions: > > > > P189 and P171: > > E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive > > is a strong shortcut of > > E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by E94 Space > Primitive > > > > Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be either > both in CRMbase or both in CRMgeo? > > > > Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now? > > > > Should there be versions of P171 for time and spacetime volumes? i.e. > > E93 Spacetime Volume P10 falls within SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume > P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive > > E52 Time-Span P86 falls within SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is > defined by E61 Time Primitive > > > > P189 and Q11: > > Does P189 indeed represent the same concept as Q11 in CRMgeo (v1.2)? For > example, P189 is marked as reflexive (i.e. any place approximates itself), > which is not possible for Q11 since its domain and range are not the same > (Declarative Place approximates Place). > > > > P189 and P7: > > E4 Period P7 took place at E53 Place > > is an inverse shortcut of > > E4 Period P161 has spatial projection E53 Place P89 falls within E53 > Place > > P7(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y)] > > (leaving out the "same reference system" requirements) > > > > Could one say that it becomes a strong shortcut if we add the "will to > approximate" to the long version? i.e. > > P7(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y) ∧ P189i(z,y)] > > > > This is not far away from Rob's starting point in issue 439 (Approximate > Dimensions). In this issue, Martin argues that P189 shouldn't be used when > one can establish "falls within". But it seems to me that > > P89 + P189i = "is approximated from the outside by" > > would work very well together. > > > > Best, > > Wolfgang > > > > > >> Am 26.09.2023 um 11:25 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig < > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>: > >> > >> I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the shortcut > would be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense to define shortcuts for STVs > and Time-Spans in CRMgeo as well? I.e. for > >> > >> E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7 Declarative Spacetime > Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive > >> > >> E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i > time is defined by E61 Time Primitive > >> > >> Best, > >> Wolfgang > >> > >> > >>> Am 25.09.2023 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig < > crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>: > >>> > >>> Dear All, > >>> > >>> I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is approximated by: > E53 Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, > >>> for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> -- > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> Dr. Martin Doerr > >>> > >>> Honorary Head of the > >>> Center for Cultural Informatics > >>> > >>> Information Systems Laboratory > >>> Institute of Computer Science > >>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > >>> > >>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > >>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > >>> > >>> Vox:+30(2810)391625 > >>> Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > >>> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Crm-sig mailing list > >>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > >>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Crm-sig mailing list > >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Crm-sig mailing list > > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > -- George Bruseker, PhD Chief Executive Officer Takin.solutions Ltd. https://www.takin.solutions/
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