I think we have an interpretation problem here :
"are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM
aims to define and analyse".
This is not a statement what users of the CRM should consider when they
use the CRM. The CRM does not intend to analyse the Geospatial
Standards, but interfaces to them, and recommends their use. It does not
deal with the way computers store real numbers, integers etc, but
interfaces to them and recommends their use. Exactly as RDF does *not
analyze xsd values*, but interfaces to them and recommends their use.
The linking construct in RDF is the *Literal*. Similarly, CRM defines
some highlevel classes, to be filled with formats others analyze and
define. Analyzing a superclass does not mean to analyze and define the
subclasses.
If this sense of the statement is not clear enough, please reformulate
adequately.
Best,
Martin
On 10/3/2023 9:59 AM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote:
The duality of primitives as being in and out of of the universe of a
discourse is a problem
On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 9:45 AM Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig
<crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote:
Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of
course there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout".
The questions about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82.
So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94
Space Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the
side of "Period is a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines
but is not a Spacetime Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The
instances of E59 Primitive Value and its subclasses are not
considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM
aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of
Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway.
> Am 01.10.2023 um 14:09 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig
<Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>:
>
> Some additional questions:
>
> P189 and P171:
> E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive
> is a strong shortcut of
> E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by
E94 Space Primitive
>
> Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be
either both in CRMbase or both in CRMgeo?
>
> Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now?
>
> Should there be versions of P171 for time and spacetime volumes?
i.e.
> E93 Spacetime Volume P10 falls within SP7 Declarative Spacetime
Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive
> E52 Time-Span P86 falls within SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i
time is defined by E61 Time Primitive
>
> P189 and Q11:
> Does P189 indeed represent the same concept as Q11 in CRMgeo
(v1.2)? For example, P189 is marked as reflexive (i.e. any place
approximates itself), which is not possible for Q11 since its
domain and range are not the same (Declarative Place approximates
Place).
>
> P189 and P7:
> E4 Period P7 took place at E53 Place
> is an inverse shortcut of
> E4 Period P161 has spatial projection E53 Place P89 falls within
E53 Place
> P7(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y)]
> (leaving out the "same reference system" requirements)
>
> Could one say that it becomes a strong shortcut if we add the
"will to approximate" to the long version? i.e.
> P7(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y) ∧ P189i(z,y)]
>
> This is not far away from Rob's starting point in issue 439
(Approximate Dimensions). In this issue, Martin argues that P189
shouldn't be used when one can establish "falls within". But it
seems to me that
> P89 + P189i = "is approximated from the outside by"
> would work very well together.
>
> Best,
> Wolfgang
>
>
>> Am 26.09.2023 um 11:25 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig
<Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>:
>>
>> I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the
shortcut would be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense to define
shortcuts for STVs and Time-Spans in CRMgeo as well? I.e. for
>>
>> E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7 Declarative
Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95
Spacetime Primitive
>>
>> E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative
Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive
>>
>> Best,
>> Wolfgang
>>
>>
>>> Am 25.09.2023 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig
<crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>:
>>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is
approximated by: E53 Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space
Primitive,
>>> for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Martin
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------
>>> Dr. Martin Doerr
>>>
>>> Honorary Head of the
>>> Center for Cultural Informatics
>>>
>>> Information Systems Laboratory
>>> Institute of Computer Science
>>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>>>
>>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
>>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
>>>
>>> Vox:+30(2810)391625
>>> Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr
>>> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Crm-sig mailing list
>>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>>
>>
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------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
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Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
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