On 10/5/2023 10:35 AM, George Bruseker wrote:
Hi Martin,
On this one continue to disagree. Yes the intention of the statement
is to say that the instances of this class and their construction are
meant to be formulated in data standards outside of CRM.
Yes, and we provide interfaces to them. May be this phrase exactly is
missing in the statement. Similarly, CRMgeo interfaces with the geo
standards.
The user of CRM absolutely should interpret this and understand it.
Yes, but this does not require the CRM to define it, as RDF does not
define the xsd values. The user of the CRM should interpret and
understand a lot more than the CRM.
"And the basics of ontology are that isA states that an instance of a
subclass is also an instance of its superclass. If the superclass is
meant to not be interpreted in CRM but be outside its world, then all of
its subclasses should also not be interpreted within CRM."
I said the opposite. Some primitive values are also *subclasses* of E41
Appellation. The superclass E41 is interpreted, but the respective
Primitive Values under it, not further.
would that make sense?
Best,
Martin
Otherwise it would be like saying that some subclasses of temporal
entity can not be, ontologically, temporal, or some subclasses of
conceptual object can be, ontologically, other than conceptual. That
would be a logical contradiction.
Best,
George
On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 10:18 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig
<crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote:
I think we have an interpretation problem here :
"are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the
CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse".
This is not a statement what users of the CRM should consider when
they use the CRM. The CRM does not intend to analyse the
Geospatial Standards, but interfaces to them, and recommends their
use. It does not deal with the way computers store real numbers,
integers etc, but interfaces to them and recommends their use.
Exactly as RDF does *not analyze xsd values*, but interfaces to
them and recommends their use. The linking construct in RDF is the
*Literal*. Similarly, CRM defines some highlevel classes, to be
filled with formats others analyze and define. Analyzing a
superclass does not mean to analyze and define the subclasses.
If this sense of the statement is not clear enough, please
reformulate adequately.
Best,
Martin
On 10/3/2023 9:59 AM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote:
The duality of primitives as being in and out of of the universe
of a discourse is a problem
On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 9:45 AM Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig
<crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote:
Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within",
and of course there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing
throughout". The questions about P171 also apply to P172 /
P81 / P82.
So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making
E94 Space Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more
on the side of "Period is a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical
Thing defines but is not a Spacetime Volume"? The E59 scope
note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and its
subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of
discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with
E94 being a subclass of Appellation this might no longer be
entirely accurate anyway.
> Am 01.10.2023 um 14:09 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via
Crm-sig <Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>:
>
> Some additional questions:
>
> P189 and P171:
> E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive
> is a strong shortcut of
> E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined
by E94 Space Primitive
>
> Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut
be either both in CRMbase or both in CRMgeo?
>
> Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now?
>
> Should there be versions of P171 for time and spacetime
volumes? i.e.
> E93 Spacetime Volume P10 falls within SP7 Declarative
Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95
Spacetime Primitive
> E52 Time-Span P86 falls within SP10 Declarative Time-Span
P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive
>
> P189 and Q11:
> Does P189 indeed represent the same concept as Q11 in
CRMgeo (v1.2)? For example, P189 is marked as reflexive (i.e.
any place approximates itself), which is not possible for Q11
since its domain and range are not the same (Declarative
Place approximates Place).
>
> P189 and P7:
> E4 Period P7 took place at E53 Place
> is an inverse shortcut of
> E4 Period P161 has spatial projection E53 Place P89 falls
within E53 Place
> P7(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y)]
> (leaving out the "same reference system" requirements)
>
> Could one say that it becomes a strong shortcut if we add
the "will to approximate" to the long version? i.e.
> P7(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y) ∧ P189i(z,y)]
>
> This is not far away from Rob's starting point in issue 439
(Approximate Dimensions). In this issue, Martin argues that
P189 shouldn't be used when one can establish "falls within".
But it seems to me that
> P89 + P189i = "is approximated from the outside by"
> would work very well together.
>
> Best,
> Wolfgang
>
>
>> Am 26.09.2023 um 11:25 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via
Crm-sig <Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>:
>>
>> I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since
the shortcut would be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense
to define shortcuts for STVs and Time-Spans in CRMgeo as
well? I.e. for
>>
>> E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7
Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is
defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive
>>
>> E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative
Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive
>>
>> Best,
>> Wolfgang
>>
>>
>>> Am 25.09.2023 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig
<crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>:
>>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is
approximated by: E53 Place P168 place is defined by : E94
Space Primitive,
>>> for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Martin
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------
>>> Dr. Martin Doerr
>>>
>>> Honorary Head of the
>>> Center for Cultural Informatics
>>>
>>> Information Systems Laboratory
>>> Institute of Computer Science
>>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>>>
>>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
>>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
>>>
>>> Vox:+30(2810)391625
>>> Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr
>>> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Crm-sig mailing list
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>>
>>
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------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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