Sounds great. That way you can wash down that dirty example with a beverage of your choice. :)
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:03 PM, Mike Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bobby, You should begin that process by taking me to dinner. > > On Oct 9, 2008, at 2:33 PM, Robert Johnson wrote: > > *Rob * > ** > I think I agree with everything you said. The James passage you mention > seems to promote the idea of doing what you know is right to do, and if you > know what is right to do, it's right, so you can't do wrong in that case. > However, the rub in our conversations so far is the application of this > principle. The application has been like this: If I *think* that > practicing Halloween is wrong or if I *think* that eating beans is wrong, > then it is wrong for me to practice Halloween or to eat beans. But to apply > the principle correctly, we'd have to *know* that practicing Halloween is > wrong or *know* that eating beans is wrong to make it wrong to practice > Halloween or to eat beans. And thinking is not necessarily knowing -- they > are two distinct belief states. For we can think that *p* and *p* be > false; but we can't know that *p* and *p* be false, since by definition, > knowledge entails that the belief is true. This distinction and difference > between using thinking and knowing in the application of the verse in James > is the point I am making. > > *Mike* > > Sorry for the dirty example. I needed to think of a case involving > something clearly wrong -- and child abuse is clearly wrong more so than > most other offenses. I agree with everything you've said about Halloween. > Maybe it would be different in the 60's than it is now, although I regret > knowing much about the history of the practice of Halloween. I'm a big > believer of playing it safe with respect to acting in light of God's will > and expectations. Regretfully, I don't always practice this principle, but > I acknowledge the wisdom of it and aspire to practice it. Like so many > things we like to do, Halloween is a grey area of morality -- it's not > clearly right or clearly wrong. As Rob and you seem to believe the > strongest, there seems to be some wrong making properties of Halloween (tied > to pagan celebration, glorifies evil to some extent). These properties may > well be counterbalanced by right making properties (e.g., communal harmony, > fun). I'm wondering if we should take the chance of offending God by doing > anything at this time. In this context, I would like to suggest that we > rethink the entire idea of holidays and the Christian involvement in them. > It's tempting to keep things the way they are, since Christmas and Easter > have such deep Christian connotations. Tradition is friction for change, so > I know that most everybody will be inclined to attack this proposal, but > here it is. I think that we should celebrate the resurrection and Christ's > birth every day as believers, and every week or every gathering as a church, > and give each other gifts as expressions of love motivated by the Holy > Spirit. And we should think about abandoning the traditional American > holiday system to the extent that it risks offending God. > > *Dave* > > Let me try this from another angle, and tell me if I'm missing your point. > > The point is that she thought what she was doing was wrong, and she was > incorrect, making her action right, which counterexamples [T]. It doesn't > matter how she formed the belief that what she was doing is wrong; it only > matters that she believed that what she was doing was wrong and that our > intuition is that what she did was actually right. Does this make better > sense? > > Everything you said about Halloween sounds right to me. > > > Bobby > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Mike Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > >> Rob I have an electric garage door opener for a reason. :) >> On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:49 AM, Robert Long wrote: >> >> Now see... that's twice, Mike, you've mentioned concern about your >> neighbors. I'm all for being cautious with my children of course but I've >> always gone along with them in the neighborhood and got a chance to meet >> some of my neighbors or at least say hi. Or when I'm home I get to meet >> some of the kids in the neighborhood. It can be a very community type >> activity inside the neighborhood although granted its not in all.... Get to >> know your neighbors Butler!! (said with a wink and a smile of course!) >> >> Rob >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: Halloween >> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:12:09 -0500 >> >> Bobby, >> Following your line of thought: Should we celebrate holidays that we have >> adapted from Pagan festivals, such as Christmas and Easter? I agree that >> "halloween brings a community together and strengthens bonds between each >> other"; however, I wonder if that were more true within America say 60 years >> ago? I would contend that practicing halloween in the traditional sense that >> I have known personally, is not really healthy unless you know your >> neighbors. That is why I do like the "community" concept where churches, >> schools, community centers develop a "harvest festival" of sorts that allows >> for kids to cycle through booths per se and get candy there. >> Finally, >> thank you for the completely awkward example of chloe and her father. I >> felt dirty reading it, Bobby. :) (It feels wrong just to put the smily >> face after it to show that I am being sarcastic) >> >> About Halloween: >> >> Is there any evidence that God wants us to abstain from attending or >> participating pagan festivals? Would this evoke God's jealousy? My gut >> reaction to all this is this: Although it is common for evangelical >> Christians to participate in Halloween and to see nothing wrong with it >> because they have good motives, it seems that God would honor anyone who >> used Halloween as an opportunity to show their children (and others) that >> fun and following the crowd should never come at the expense of our duty to >> honor and celebrate God alone (or to make any kind of celebration as >> Theocentric as possible and appropriate). I'm tempted to say that the safe >> route would be to skip Halloween on principle and also skip lying to our >> kids about the existence of Santa for that matter (sorry, that's a little >> off topic, but not exactly off topic). Tradition and following the crowd >> should go out the window when we subject our collective, family will to >> God's will. >> >> With this said, Halloween -- viewed as a community event divorced from any >> notion of a pagan holiday -- is viewd by most Christians as perfectly >> benign. Halloween brings a community together and strengthens bonds between >> each other. You can go visit your friends in costumes and have a great deal >> of fun. Personally, I have very positive memories of Halloween, and I >> shrink at the notion that my parents would have denied me them. However, if >> they were taking a stand for God and were not wishing to evoke His jealousy, >> I would have remembered that too, and that may have improved my soul more >> than the memories. >> >> Bobby >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:45 PM, Robert Johnson < >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> "If I don't think I should be doing it, I shouldn't be doing it" implies >> that *[T]* *Thinking doing X is wrong makes doing X wrong*. >> >> *Chloe and Her Father* >> ** >> Suppose Chloe the child has an evil, abusive dad that tells her that >> telling Mom about their little secret is wrong, and on the basis of what her >> father says, Chloe erroneously believes that telling Mom about their little >> secret is wrong. However, because of the little secret, Chloe has an >> existential knot in her stomach, feeling that that there is something wrong >> and unnatural about what's going on between her and her father. So one day, >> in conflict with her belief that she shouldn't do it, she tells her Mom the >> little secret. Chloe's mom assures her that she did the *right*thing by >> telling her, and so does the judge tell her she did the right thing later >> when her father is convicted of child abuse of the worst kind. >> >> *Analysis* >> >> The story, Chloe and Her Father, proves that [T] is false in some cases, >> making it an exceptioned generalization. It seems that any time someone >> mistakenly thinks they are doing the wrong thing always does the right >> thing. Another lesson of the story is that our thoughts about our actions >> do not make them right or wrong. By contrast, God's thoughts about our >> actions make them right or wrong. >> >> Bobby >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Robert Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >> >> Ayuh, we got around to talking about the necessity of feeling bad about >> something or lamenting / mourning when it is necessary to lead to change. >> We discussed this on a personal level as well as a community level and >> mentioned some of the same examples you did. In case you were worried... >> lol! >> I think it was pretty apparent I agree with your viewpoint on Halloween. >> It can be enjoyed innocently but it can also be taken too far. To play >> Devil's advocate though - what is your opinion of passages like Deuteronomy >> 18:10-12, or 1Thess. 5:21,22, Eph. 5:8-12? Reading passages like this make >> me think that hey! Am I really fighting against a dark holiday by >> trivializing it or am I participating in something I shouldn't be. I think >> it comes down to what we've mentioned in other posts - if I don't think I >> should be doing it, I shouldn't be doing it (i.e. I shouldn't eat beans if I >> think it is wrong...). Are there any holy, pure, Christ-like aspects to >> Halloween? Hmmm..... >> >> Rob >> >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: Halloween >> > Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:49:03 -0500 >> >> > >> > >> > Rob, >> > In response to the "fuddy-duddy, stick in the mud" statement, I think >> > that lament is a very real aspect to the Christian faith. Healthy >> > lament puts our our lives in constant perspective. The essence of >> > Lament is honesty before God and trusting that he is concerned with >> > the very real frustrations our lives produce. A majority of psalms >> > are laments, Jesus laments over the status of Israel in Matthew, not >> > too mention Paul's lament for Israel in Romans. While it must be >> > understood that we are not called to fixate on our pain, we are not >> > called to disregard it as insignificant and necessary. (Not that I am >> > arguing that this is your position :0 ) >> > In regards to Hallow's Eve, I think it is important to understand the >> > roots of the holiday and be able to articulate a conversation about >> > the purpose for it, not too mention All Saints day that follows. That >> > being said, I feel foolish dressing up, but that has more to do with >> > me be a "stick in the mud" and not because I am opposed to the >> > holiday. I do think it is dangerous to take kids out in and encourage >> > them to knock on a stranger's door for the sake of "candy". That >> > being said, I think there have been numerous churches, schools, and >> > local organizations who have created great opportunities for kids to >> > have fun and a place for adults to take them and feel at ease. Is >> > this an endorsement of witchcraft, sorcery, and dabbling in dark arts, >> > I don't think so. But I think this is because I am willing to >> > honestly talk with my kids about the motivation. To me it's like any >> > other form of entertainment, it gets out of hand, when we don't keep >> > it in check. >> > On Oct 8, 2008, at 10:31 AM, Rob L. wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > Follow me on this... >> > > We were discussing James 4:7-10 this week and one of the things that >> > > struck me was the admonition by James in 4:9 to lament and mourn and >> > > weep. Obviously there is some context and the conversation did get >> > > around to being sorrowful over sin and repentance. I started us out >> > > though by discussing how this seems a poor way to represent >> > > Christianity. I really don't like it when Christians come across us >> > > as fuddy-duddy sticks in the mud when really we are capable of having >> > > just as much, if not more fun than the world. >> > > So, this verse caught my eye. One of the topics that came up is >> > > Halloween and how many Christians want nothing to do with it. I am >> > > not judging this point of view if anyone has it and in fact respect >> > > and understand it. I laid out for the class Rob's theory of Holidays >> > > and thought it might garner some discussion here as well. >> > > Christmas and Easter have some pagan associations both with the timing >> > > of the holiday and some of the symbolism. I've always thought that >> > > the significance of the birth of Christ and the resurrection of Christ >> > > could not be eliminated/squelched/hushed-up by the forces of darkness >> > > so they used the strategy of misdirection (in the form of these pagan >> > > symbols) to minimize and trivialize the significance of these events. >> > > In kind of a reverse thought process I've kind of always thought that >> > > dressing up in costumes and handing out candy kind of trivialized and >> > > minimized the admittedly evil roots of Halloween. Plus! it's fun, and >> > > you know how we like to justify our fun. Just thought I'd solicit you >> > > alls thoughts - do you celebrate it? do you feel any guilt over this >> > > or are you at peace with it being a harmless childrens holiday? >> > > >> > > Rob >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > Mike Butler, Minister to College and Singles >> > CrossPointe Church >> > Happy are the Beggars >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Crosspointe Discuss" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/crosspointe-discuss?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
