*Rob * ** I think I agree with everything you said. The James passage you mention seems to promote the idea of doing what you know is right to do, and if you know what is right to do, it's right, so you can't do wrong in that case. However, the rub in our conversations so far is the application of this principle. The application has been like this: If I *think* that practicing Halloween is wrong or if I *think* that eating beans is wrong, then it is wrong for me to practice Halloween or to eat beans. But to apply the principle correctly, we'd have to *know* that practicing Halloween is wrong or *know* that eating beans is wrong to make it wrong to practice Halloween or to eat beans. And thinking is not necessarily knowing -- they are two distinct belief states. For we can think that *p* and *p* be false; but we can't know that *p* and *p* be false, since by definition, knowledge entails that the belief is true. This distinction and difference between using thinking and knowing in the application of the verse in James is the point I am making.
*Mike* Sorry for the dirty example. I needed to think of a case involving something clearly wrong -- and child abuse is clearly wrong more so than most other offenses. I agree with everything you've said about Halloween. Maybe it would be different in the 60's than it is now, although I regret knowing much about the history of the practice of Halloween. I'm a big believer of playing it safe with respect to acting in light of God's will and expectations. Regretfully, I don't always practice this principle, but I acknowledge the wisdom of it and aspire to practice it. Like so many things we like to do, Halloween is a grey area of morality -- it's not clearly right or clearly wrong. As Rob and you seem to believe the strongest, there seems to be some wrong making properties of Halloween (tied to pagan celebration, glorifies evil to some extent). These properties may well be counterbalanced by right making properties (e.g., communal harmony, fun). I'm wondering if we should take the chance of offending God by doing anything at this time. In this context, I would like to suggest that we rethink the entire idea of holidays and the Christian involvement in them. It's tempting to keep things the way they are, since Christmas and Easter have such deep Christian connotations. Tradition is friction for change, so I know that most everybody will be inclined to attack this proposal, but here it is. I think that we should celebrate the resurrection and Christ's birth every day as believers, and every week or every gathering as a church, and give each other gifts as expressions of love motivated by the Holy Spirit. And we should think about abandoning the traditional American holiday system to the extent that it risks offending God. *Dave* Let me try this from another angle, and tell me if I'm missing your point. The point is that she thought what she was doing was wrong, and she was incorrect, making her action right, which counterexamples [T]. It doesn't matter how she formed the belief that what she was doing is wrong; it only matters that she believed that what she was doing was wrong and that our intuition is that what she did was actually right. Does this make better sense? Everything you said about Halloween sounds right to me. Bobby On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Mike Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Rob I have an electric garage door opener for a reason. :) > On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:49 AM, Robert Long wrote: > > Now see... that's twice, Mike, you've mentioned concern about your > neighbors. I'm all for being cautious with my children of course but I've > always gone along with them in the neighborhood and got a chance to meet > some of my neighbors or at least say hi. Or when I'm home I get to meet > some of the kids in the neighborhood. It can be a very community type > activity inside the neighborhood although granted its not in all.... Get to > know your neighbors Butler!! (said with a wink and a smile of course!) > > Rob > > > ------------------------------ > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [email protected] > Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: Halloween > Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:12:09 -0500 > > Bobby, > Following your line of thought: Should we celebrate holidays that we have > adapted from Pagan festivals, such as Christmas and Easter? I agree that > "halloween brings a community together and strengthens bonds between each > other"; however, I wonder if that were more true within America say 60 years > ago? I would contend that practicing halloween in the traditional sense that > I have known personally, is not really healthy unless you know your > neighbors. That is why I do like the "community" concept where churches, > schools, community centers develop a "harvest festival" of sorts that allows > for kids to cycle through booths per se and get candy there. > Finally, > thank you for the completely awkward example of chloe and her father. I > felt dirty reading it, Bobby. :) (It feels wrong just to put the smily > face after it to show that I am being sarcastic) > > About Halloween: > > Is there any evidence that God wants us to abstain from attending or > participating pagan festivals? Would this evoke God's jealousy? My gut > reaction to all this is this: Although it is common for evangelical > Christians to participate in Halloween and to see nothing wrong with it > because they have good motives, it seems that God would honor anyone who > used Halloween as an opportunity to show their children (and others) that > fun and following the crowd should never come at the expense of our duty to > honor and celebrate God alone (or to make any kind of celebration as > Theocentric as possible and appropriate). I'm tempted to say that the safe > route would be to skip Halloween on principle and also skip lying to our > kids about the existence of Santa for that matter (sorry, that's a little > off topic, but not exactly off topic). Tradition and following the crowd > should go out the window when we subject our collective, family will to > God's will. > > With this said, Halloween -- viewed as a community event divorced from any > notion of a pagan holiday -- is viewd by most Christians as perfectly > benign. Halloween brings a community together and strengthens bonds between > each other. You can go visit your friends in costumes and have a great deal > of fun. Personally, I have very positive memories of Halloween, and I > shrink at the notion that my parents would have denied me them. However, if > they were taking a stand for God and were not wishing to evoke His jealousy, > I would have remembered that too, and that may have improved my soul more > than the memories. > > Bobby > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:45 PM, Robert Johnson < > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "If I don't think I should be doing it, I shouldn't be doing it" implies > that *[T]* *Thinking doing X is wrong makes doing X wrong*. > > *Chloe and Her Father* > ** > Suppose Chloe the child has an evil, abusive dad that tells her that > telling Mom about their little secret is wrong, and on the basis of what her > father says, Chloe erroneously believes that telling Mom about their little > secret is wrong. However, because of the little secret, Chloe has an > existential knot in her stomach, feeling that that there is something wrong > and unnatural about what's going on between her and her father. So one day, > in conflict with her belief that she shouldn't do it, she tells her Mom the > little secret. Chloe's mom assures her that she did the *right*thing by > telling her, and so does the judge tell her she did the right thing later > when her father is convicted of child abuse of the worst kind. > > *Analysis* > > The story, Chloe and Her Father, proves that [T] is false in some cases, > making it an exceptioned generalization. It seems that any time someone > mistakenly thinks they are doing the wrong thing always does the right > thing. Another lesson of the story is that our thoughts about our actions > do not make them right or wrong. By contrast, God's thoughts about our > actions make them right or wrong. > > Bobby > > > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Robert Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Ayuh, we got around to talking about the necessity of feeling bad about > something or lamenting / mourning when it is necessary to lead to change. > We discussed this on a personal level as well as a community level and > mentioned some of the same examples you did. In case you were worried... > lol! > I think it was pretty apparent I agree with your viewpoint on Halloween. > It can be enjoyed innocently but it can also be taken too far. To play > Devil's advocate though - what is your opinion of passages like Deuteronomy > 18:10-12, or 1Thess. 5:21,22, Eph. 5:8-12? Reading passages like this make > me think that hey! Am I really fighting against a dark holiday by > trivializing it or am I participating in something I shouldn't be. I think > it comes down to what we've mentioned in other posts - if I don't think I > should be doing it, I shouldn't be doing it (i.e. I shouldn't eat beans if I > think it is wrong...). Are there any holy, pure, Christ-like aspects to > Halloween? Hmmm..... > > Rob > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: Halloween > > Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:49:03 -0500 > > > > > > > Rob, > > In response to the "fuddy-duddy, stick in the mud" statement, I think > > that lament is a very real aspect to the Christian faith. Healthy > > lament puts our our lives in constant perspective. The essence of > > Lament is honesty before God and trusting that he is concerned with > > the very real frustrations our lives produce. A majority of psalms > > are laments, Jesus laments over the status of Israel in Matthew, not > > too mention Paul's lament for Israel in Romans. While it must be > > understood that we are not called to fixate on our pain, we are not > > called to disregard it as insignificant and necessary. (Not that I am > > arguing that this is your position :0 ) > > In regards to Hallow's Eve, I think it is important to understand the > > roots of the holiday and be able to articulate a conversation about > > the purpose for it, not too mention All Saints day that follows. That > > being said, I feel foolish dressing up, but that has more to do with > > me be a "stick in the mud" and not because I am opposed to the > > holiday. I do think it is dangerous to take kids out in and encourage > > them to knock on a stranger's door for the sake of "candy". That > > being said, I think there have been numerous churches, schools, and > > local organizations who have created great opportunities for kids to > > have fun and a place for adults to take them and feel at ease. Is > > this an endorsement of witchcraft, sorcery, and dabbling in dark arts, > > I don't think so. But I think this is because I am willing to > > honestly talk with my kids about the motivation. To me it's like any > > other form of entertainment, it gets out of hand, when we don't keep > > it in check. > > On Oct 8, 2008, at 10:31 AM, Rob L. wrote: > > > > > > > > Follow me on this... > > > We were discussing James 4:7-10 this week and one of the things that > > > struck me was the admonition by James in 4:9 to lament and mourn and > > > weep. Obviously there is some context and the conversation did get > > > around to being sorrowful over sin and repentance. I started us out > > > though by discussing how this seems a poor way to represent > > > Christianity. I really don't like it when Christians come across us > > > as fuddy-duddy sticks in the mud when really we are capable of having > > > just as much, if not more fun than the world. > > > So, this verse caught my eye. One of the topics that came up is > > > Halloween and how many Christians want nothing to do with it. I am > > > not judging this point of view if anyone has it and in fact respect > > > and understand it. I laid out for the class Rob's theory of Holidays > > > and thought it might garner some discussion here as well. > > > Christmas and Easter have some pagan associations both with the timing > > > of the holiday and some of the symbolism. I've always thought that > > > the significance of the birth of Christ and the resurrection of Christ > > > could not be eliminated/squelched/hushed-up by the forces of darkness > > > so they used the strategy of misdirection (in the form of these pagan > > > symbols) to minimize and trivialize the significance of these events. > > > In kind of a reverse thought process I've kind of always thought that > > > dressing up in costumes and handing out candy kind of trivialized and > > > minimized the admittedly evil roots of Halloween. Plus! it's fun, and > > > you know how we like to justify our fun. Just thought I'd solicit you > > > alls thoughts - do you celebrate it? do you feel any guilt over this > > > or are you at peace with it being a harmless childrens holiday? > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike Butler, Minister to College and Singles > > CrossPointe Church > > Happy are the Beggars > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Crosspointe Discuss" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/crosspointe-discuss?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
