Bobby, You should begin that process by taking me to dinner. On Oct 9, 2008, at 2:33 PM, Robert Johnson wrote:
> Rob > > I think I agree with everything you said. The James passage you > mention seems to promote the idea of doing what you know is right to > do, and if you know what is right to do, it's right, so you can't do > wrong in that case. However, the rub in our conversations so far is > the application of this principle. The application has been like > this: If I think that practicing Halloween is wrong or if I think > that eating beans is wrong, then it is wrong for me to practice > Halloween or to eat beans. But to apply the principle correctly, > we'd have to know that practicing Halloween is wrong or know that > eating beans is wrong to make it wrong to practice Halloween or to > eat beans. And thinking is not necessarily knowing -- they are two > distinct belief states. For we can think that p and p be false; but > we can't know that p and p be false, since by definition, knowledge > entails that the belief is true. This distinction and difference > between using thinking and knowing in the application of the verse > in James is the point I am making. > > Mike > > Sorry for the dirty example. I needed to think of a case involving > something clearly wrong -- and child abuse is clearly wrong more so > than most other offenses. I agree with everything you've said about > Halloween. Maybe it would be different in the 60's than it is now, > although I regret knowing much about the history of the practice of > Halloween. I'm a big believer of playing it safe with respect to > acting in light of God's will and expectations. Regretfully, I > don't always practice this principle, but I acknowledge the wisdom > of it and aspire to practice it. Like so many things we like to do, > Halloween is a grey area of morality -- it's not clearly right or > clearly wrong. As Rob and you seem to believe the strongest, there > seems to be some wrong making properties of Halloween (tied to pagan > celebration, glorifies evil to some extent). These properties may > well be counterbalanced by right making properties (e.g., communal > harmony, fun). I'm wondering if we should take the chance of > offending God by doing anything at this time. In this context, I > would like to suggest that we rethink the entire idea of holidays > and the Christian involvement in them. It's tempting to keep things > the way they are, since Christmas and Easter have such deep > Christian connotations. Tradition is friction for change, so I know > that most everybody will be inclined to attack this proposal, but > here it is. I think that we should celebrate the resurrection and > Christ's birth every day as believers, and every week or every > gathering as a church, and give each other gifts as expressions of > love motivated by the Holy Spirit. And we should think about > abandoning the traditional American holiday system to the extent > that it risks offending God. > > Dave > > Let me try this from another angle, and tell me if I'm missing your > point. > > The point is that she thought what she was doing was wrong, and she > was incorrect, making her action right, which counterexamples [T]. > It doesn't matter how she formed the belief that what she was doing > is wrong; it only matters that she believed that what she was doing > was wrong and that our intuition is that what she did was actually > right. Does this make better sense? > > Everything you said about Halloween sounds right to me. > > > Bobby > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Mike Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > Rob I have an electric garage door opener for a reason. :) > On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:49 AM, Robert Long wrote: > >> Now see... that's twice, Mike, you've mentioned concern about your >> neighbors. I'm all for being cautious with my children of course >> but I've always gone along with them in the neighborhood and got a >> chance to meet some of my neighbors or at least say hi. Or when >> I'm home I get to meet some of the kids in the neighborhood. It >> can be a very community type activity inside the neighborhood >> although granted its not in all.... Get to know your neighbors >> Butler!! (said with a wink and a smile of course!) >> >> Rob >> >> >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: Halloween >> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:12:09 -0500 >> >> Bobby, >> Following your line of thought: Should we celebrate holidays that >> we have adapted from Pagan festivals, such as Christmas and >> Easter? I agree that "halloween brings a community together and >> strengthens bonds between each other"; however, I wonder if that >> were more true within America say 60 years ago? I would contend >> that practicing halloween in the traditional sense that I have >> known personally, is not really healthy unless you know your >> neighbors. That is why I do like the "community" concept where >> churches, schools, community centers develop a "harvest festival" >> of sorts that allows for kids to cycle through booths per se and >> get candy there. >> Finally, >> thank you for the completely awkward example of chloe and her >> father. I felt dirty reading it, Bobby. :) (It feels wrong just >> to put the smily face after it to show that I am being sarcastic) >> >> About Halloween: >> >> Is there any evidence that God wants us to abstain from attending >> or participating pagan festivals? Would this evoke God's jealousy? >> My gut reaction to all this is this: Although it is common for >> evangelical Christians to participate in Halloween and to see >> nothing wrong with it because they have good motives, it seems that >> God would honor anyone who used Halloween as an opportunity to show >> their children (and others) that fun and following the crowd should >> never come at the expense of our duty to honor and celebrate God >> alone (or to make any kind of celebration as Theocentric as >> possible and appropriate). I'm tempted to say that the safe route >> would be to skip Halloween on principle and also skip lying to our >> kids about the existence of Santa for that matter (sorry, that's a >> little off topic, but not exactly off topic). Tradition and >> following the crowd should go out the window when we subject our >> collective, family will to God's will. >> >> With this said, Halloween -- viewed as a community event divorced >> from any notion of a pagan holiday -- is viewd by most Christians >> as perfectly benign. Halloween brings a community together and >> strengthens bonds between each other. You can go visit your >> friends in costumes and have a great deal of fun. Personally, I >> have very positive memories of Halloween, and I shrink at the >> notion that my parents would have denied me them. However, if they >> were taking a stand for God and were not wishing to evoke His >> jealousy, I would have remembered that too, and that may have >> improved my soul more than the memories. >> >> Bobby >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:45 PM, Robert Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > wrote: >> "If I don't think I should be doing it, I shouldn't be doing it" >> implies that [T] Thinking doing X is wrong makes doing X wrong. >> >> Chloe and Her Father >> >> Suppose Chloe the child has an evil, abusive dad that tells her >> that telling Mom about their little secret is wrong, and on the >> basis of what her father says, Chloe erroneously believes that >> telling Mom about their little secret is wrong. However, because >> of the little secret, Chloe has an existential knot in her stomach, >> feeling that that there is something wrong and unnatural about >> what's going on between her and her father. So one day, in >> conflict with her belief that she shouldn't do it, she tells her >> Mom the little secret. Chloe's mom assures her that she did the >> rightthing by telling her, and so does the judge tell her she did >> the right thing later when her father is convicted of child abuse >> of the worst kind. >> >> Analysis >> >> The story, Chloe and Her Father, proves that [T] is false in some >> cases, making it an exceptioned generalization. It seems that any >> time someone mistakenly thinks they are doing the wrong thing >> always does the right thing. Another lesson of the story is that >> our thoughts about our actions do not make them right or wrong. By >> contrast, God's thoughts about our actions make them right or wrong. >> >> Bobby >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Robert Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > wrote: >> Ayuh, we got around to talking about the necessity of feeling bad >> about something or lamenting / mourning when it is necessary to >> lead to change. We discussed this on a personal level as well as a >> community level and mentioned some of the same examples you did. >> In case you were worried... lol! >> I think it was pretty apparent I agree with your viewpoint on >> Halloween. It can be enjoyed innocently but it can also be taken >> too far. To play Devil's advocate though - what is your opinion of >> passages like Deuteronomy 18:10-12, or 1Thess. 5:21,22, Eph. >> 5:8-12? Reading passages like this make me think that hey! Am I >> really fighting against a dark holiday by trivializing it or am I >> participating in something I shouldn't be. I think it comes down >> to what we've mentioned in other posts - if I don't think I should >> be doing it, I shouldn't be doing it (i.e. I shouldn't eat beans if >> I think it is wrong...). Are there any holy, pure, Christ-like >> aspects to Halloween? Hmmm..... >> >> Rob >> >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: Halloween >> > Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:49:03 -0500 >> >> > >> > >> > Rob, >> > In response to the "fuddy-duddy, stick in the mud" statement, I >> think >> > that lament is a very real aspect to the Christian faith. Healthy >> > lament puts our our lives in constant perspective. The essence of >> > Lament is honesty before God and trusting that he is concerned with >> > the very real frustrations our lives produce. A majority of psalms >> > are laments, Jesus laments over the status of Israel in Matthew, >> not >> > too mention Paul's lament for Israel in Romans. While it must be >> > understood that we are not called to fixate on our pain, we are not >> > called to disregard it as insignificant and necessary. (Not that >> I am >> > arguing that this is your position :0 ) >> > In regards to Hallow's Eve, I think it is important to understand >> the >> > roots of the holiday and be able to articulate a conversation about >> > the purpose for it, not too mention All Saints day that follows. >> That >> > being said, I feel foolish dressing up, but that has more to do >> with >> > me be a "stick in the mud" and not because I am opposed to the >> > holiday. I do think it is dangerous to take kids out in and >> encourage >> > them to knock on a stranger's door for the sake of "candy". That >> > being said, I think there have been numerous churches, schools, and >> > local organizations who have created great opportunities for kids >> to >> > have fun and a place for adults to take them and feel at ease. Is >> > this an endorsement of witchcraft, sorcery, and dabbling in dark >> arts, >> > I don't think so. But I think this is because I am willing to >> > honestly talk with my kids about the motivation. To me it's like >> any >> > other form of entertainment, it gets out of hand, when we don't >> keep >> > it in check. >> > On Oct 8, 2008, at 10:31 AM, Rob L. wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > Follow me on this... >> > > We were discussing James 4:7-10 this week and one of the things >> that >> > > struck me was the admonition by James in 4:9 to lament and >> mourn and >> > > weep. Obviously there is some context and the conversation did >> get >> > > around to being sorrowful over sin and repentance. I started us >> out >> > > though by discussing how this seems a poor way to represent >> > > Christianity. I really don't like it when Christians come >> across us >> > > as fuddy-duddy sticks in the mud when really we are capable of >> having >> > > just as much, if not more fun than the world. >> > > So, this verse caught my eye. One of the topics that came up is >> > > Halloween and how many Christians want nothing to do with it. I >> am >> > > not judging this point of view if anyone has it and in fact >> respect >> > > and understand it. I laid out for the class Rob's theory of >> Holidays >> > > and thought it might garner some discussion here as well. >> > > Christmas and Easter have some pagan associations both with the >> timing >> > > of the holiday and some of the symbolism. I've always thought >> that >> > > the significance of the birth of Christ and the resurrection of >> Christ >> > > could not be eliminated/squelched/hushed-up by the forces of >> darkness >> > > so they used the strategy of misdirection (in the form of these >> pagan >> > > symbols) to minimize and trivialize the significance of these >> events. >> > > In kind of a reverse thought process I've kind of always >> thought that >> > > dressing up in costumes and handing out candy kind of >> trivialized and >> > > minimized the admittedly evil roots of Halloween. Plus! it's >> fun, and >> > > you know how we like to justify our fun. Just thought I'd >> solicit you >> > > alls thoughts - do you celebrate it? do you feel any guilt over >> this >> > > or are you at peace with it being a harmless childrens holiday? >> > > >> > > Rob >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > Mike Butler, Minister to College and Singles >> > CrossPointe Church >> > Happy are the Beggars >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Crosspointe Discuss" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/crosspointe-discuss?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
