Rob I have an electric garage door opener for a reason. :) On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:49 AM, Robert Long wrote:
> Now see... that's twice, Mike, you've mentioned concern about your > neighbors. I'm all for being cautious with my children of course > but I've always gone along with them in the neighborhood and got a > chance to meet some of my neighbors or at least say hi. Or when I'm > home I get to meet some of the kids in the neighborhood. It can be > a very community type activity inside the neighborhood although > granted its not in all.... Get to know your neighbors Butler!! > (said with a wink and a smile of course!) > > Rob > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [email protected] > Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: Halloween > Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:12:09 -0500 > > Bobby, > Following your line of thought: Should we celebrate holidays that > we have adapted from Pagan festivals, such as Christmas and Easter? > I agree that "halloween brings a community together and strengthens > bonds between each other"; however, I wonder if that were more true > within America say 60 years ago? I would contend that practicing > halloween in the traditional sense that I have known personally, is > not really healthy unless you know your neighbors. That is why I do > like the "community" concept where churches, schools, community > centers develop a "harvest festival" of sorts that allows for kids > to cycle through booths per se and get candy there. > Finally, > thank you for the completely awkward example of chloe and her > father. I felt dirty reading it, Bobby. :) (It feels wrong just > to put the smily face after it to show that I am being sarcastic) > > About Halloween: > > Is there any evidence that God wants us to abstain from attending or > participating pagan festivals? Would this evoke God's jealousy? My > gut reaction to all this is this: Although it is common for > evangelical Christians to participate in Halloween and to see > nothing wrong with it because they have good motives, it seems that > God would honor anyone who used Halloween as an opportunity to show > their children (and others) that fun and following the crowd should > never come at the expense of our duty to honor and celebrate God > alone (or to make any kind of celebration as Theocentric as possible > and appropriate). I'm tempted to say that the safe route would be > to skip Halloween on principle and also skip lying to our kids about > the existence of Santa for that matter (sorry, that's a little off > topic, but not exactly off topic). Tradition and following the > crowd should go out the window when we subject our collective, > family will to God's will. > > With this said, Halloween -- viewed as a community event divorced > from any notion of a pagan holiday -- is viewd by most Christians as > perfectly benign. Halloween brings a community together and > strengthens bonds between each other. You can go visit your friends > in costumes and have a great deal of fun. Personally, I have very > positive memories of Halloween, and I shrink at the notion that my > parents would have denied me them. However, if they were taking a > stand for God and were not wishing to evoke His jealousy, I would > have remembered that too, and that may have improved my soul more > than the memories. > > Bobby > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:45 PM, Robert Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > wrote: > "If I don't think I should be doing it, I shouldn't be doing it" > implies that [T] Thinking doing X is wrong makes doing X wrong. > > Chloe and Her Father > > Suppose Chloe the child has an evil, abusive dad that tells her that > telling Mom about their little secret is wrong, and on the basis of > what her father says, Chloe erroneously believes that telling Mom > about their little secret is wrong. However, because of the little > secret, Chloe has an existential knot in her stomach, feeling that > that there is something wrong and unnatural about what's going on > between her and her father. So one day, in conflict with her belief > that she shouldn't do it, she tells her Mom the little secret. > Chloe's mom assures her that she did the rightthing by telling her, > and so does the judge tell her she did the right thing later when > her father is convicted of child abuse of the worst kind. > > Analysis > > The story, Chloe and Her Father, proves that [T] is false in some > cases, making it an exceptioned generalization. It seems that any > time someone mistakenly thinks they are doing the wrong thing always > does the right thing. Another lesson of the story is that our > thoughts about our actions do not make them right or wrong. By > contrast, God's thoughts about our actions make them right or wrong. > > Bobby > > > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Robert Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > wrote: > Ayuh, we got around to talking about the necessity of feeling bad > about something or lamenting / mourning when it is necessary to lead > to change. We discussed this on a personal level as well as a > community level and mentioned some of the same examples you did. In > case you were worried... lol! > I think it was pretty apparent I agree with your viewpoint on > Halloween. It can be enjoyed innocently but it can also be taken > too far. To play Devil's advocate though - what is your opinion of > passages like Deuteronomy 18:10-12, or 1Thess. 5:21,22, Eph. > 5:8-12? Reading passages like this make me think that hey! Am I > really fighting against a dark holiday by trivializing it or am I > participating in something I shouldn't be. I think it comes down to > what we've mentioned in other posts - if I don't think I should be > doing it, I shouldn't be doing it (i.e. I shouldn't eat beans if I > think it is wrong...). Are there any holy, pure, Christ-like > aspects to Halloween? Hmmm..... > > Rob > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: Halloween > > Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:49:03 -0500 > > > > > > > Rob, > > In response to the "fuddy-duddy, stick in the mud" statement, I > think > > that lament is a very real aspect to the Christian faith. Healthy > > lament puts our our lives in constant perspective. The essence of > > Lament is honesty before God and trusting that he is concerned with > > the very real frustrations our lives produce. A majority of psalms > > are laments, Jesus laments over the status of Israel in Matthew, not > > too mention Paul's lament for Israel in Romans. While it must be > > understood that we are not called to fixate on our pain, we are not > > called to disregard it as insignificant and necessary. (Not that I > am > > arguing that this is your position :0 ) > > In regards to Hallow's Eve, I think it is important to understand > the > > roots of the holiday and be able to articulate a conversation about > > the purpose for it, not too mention All Saints day that follows. > That > > being said, I feel foolish dressing up, but that has more to do with > > me be a "stick in the mud" and not because I am opposed to the > > holiday. I do think it is dangerous to take kids out in and > encourage > > them to knock on a stranger's door for the sake of "candy". That > > being said, I think there have been numerous churches, schools, and > > local organizations who have created great opportunities for kids to > > have fun and a place for adults to take them and feel at ease. Is > > this an endorsement of witchcraft, sorcery, and dabbling in dark > arts, > > I don't think so. But I think this is because I am willing to > > honestly talk with my kids about the motivation. To me it's like any > > other form of entertainment, it gets out of hand, when we don't keep > > it in check. > > On Oct 8, 2008, at 10:31 AM, Rob L. wrote: > > > > > > > > Follow me on this... > > > We were discussing James 4:7-10 this week and one of the things > that > > > struck me was the admonition by James in 4:9 to lament and mourn > and > > > weep. Obviously there is some context and the conversation did get > > > around to being sorrowful over sin and repentance. I started us > out > > > though by discussing how this seems a poor way to represent > > > Christianity. I really don't like it when Christians come across > us > > > as fuddy-duddy sticks in the mud when really we are capable of > having > > > just as much, if not more fun than the world. > > > So, this verse caught my eye. One of the topics that came up is > > > Halloween and how many Christians want nothing to do with it. I am > > > not judging this point of view if anyone has it and in fact > respect > > > and understand it. I laid out for the class Rob's theory of > Holidays > > > and thought it might garner some discussion here as well. > > > Christmas and Easter have some pagan associations both with the > timing > > > of the holiday and some of the symbolism. I've always thought that > > > the significance of the birth of Christ and the resurrection of > Christ > > > could not be eliminated/squelched/hushed-up by the forces of > darkness > > > so they used the strategy of misdirection (in the form of these > pagan > > > symbols) to minimize and trivialize the significance of these > events. > > > In kind of a reverse thought process I've kind of always thought > that > > > dressing up in costumes and handing out candy kind of > trivialized and > > > minimized the admittedly evil roots of Halloween. Plus! it's > fun, and > > > you know how we like to justify our fun. Just thought I'd > solicit you > > > alls thoughts - do you celebrate it? do you feel any guilt over > this > > > or are you at peace with it being a harmless childrens holiday? > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike Butler, Minister to College and Singles > > CrossPointe Church > > Happy are the Beggars > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Crosspointe Discuss" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/crosspointe-discuss?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
