On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >Consider the situation were people mature
> >to the point where laws against, say, murder are irrelevant because
> >murder NEVER happens.
>
> Surely societies that had no martial art, no legislative process, no
> bad stuff have come and gone in the past. No doubt they will in the
> future. This sort of utopian existence occurs on tribal levels, on a
> broader scale, problems arise.
Immanuel Kant wrote a bit on his disagreement with the saying "It works
in theory, but not in practice."
The theory behind any ( society || society's actions ) that fails to
take into account basic facts about 'nature' at any level is fundamentally
flawed -- and therefore doesn't work in theory; so no wonder it doesn't
work in practice!
So, these places you talk about in history .. these little tribes
and their 'utopian existence' are in fact, not perfect at all.. they
fail to take into account their environment. They are blind to real
dangers around us.. and so the place is dangerous. They have failed
to (at least completely) serve the people and are therefore subject
to change.
No doubt there have been tribes that have created a society that gave
its people a wonderful quality of life. A lot of people lived happy,
and well .. and few people were harmed. Good deal.
But, in all fairness to the tribesman of the world, tribes suck.
I like not having to hunt my breakfast. I like taking a stroll
in my comfortable rubber-soled sneakers down the bar and to throw
back a coupl'a stouts (refridgerated, of course) with a few friends.
I like knowing that, after I'm good and drunk and its raining out, that
I don't have to walk home. I can call a cab on my cellphone and watch
the cabbie burn a fossil fual for my comfort. I love every damn minute of
it.
As for the children -- by the time they grow old enough to think
they understand exactly what the hell is going on (if public school
doesn't kill them first) they'll be pimple-faced, bratty little teens
who end up growing up into average adults. And most adults I know are
assholes. So I'm not any more concerned with those assholes than I am
with the rest of of.
> Mebbe in order to have more Dali Lamas we should nuke the land grabbers
> then the world would be a better place for the children.
Or maybe neither the Dali Lama nor the children are a good enough
reason to increase the amplitude on the assholes outlined above.
I said.
> > Clearly this situation is closer to my ideal society
> >than one in which we a) need to punish murders b) need to deter others
> >from murdering.
>
> Clearly.
> On maturity. Should there be a standard of maturity? ...
> How do we get there?
Hmm. I don't understand you, so I suspect you didn't understand by
society reaching a certain level of maturity.
A brief on maturity:
I see maturity as a growth process. A human being starts out very needy,
then gets a little self-centered independance when they hit the terrible
two's. Soon after they start maturing into young teens who stop shitting
their drawers, putting gum in their sister's hair and playing with toys.
They mature; discover members of the opposite sex -- and get stupid and
immature all over again. Then similar patterns occur through life ..
all the while, we get more mature, maybe a little wiser.
Upon quick inspection, I see that human societies evolve with similar
patterns.
There is no standard of maturity ("perfect maturity") just as there is no
standard of age or largest number.
People grow. Societies grow. Sometimes it stinks and is messy; others it
is awkward or hell maybe even funny.. but getting there is easy.
> History has shown us that in the past, societies have been ruled by some
> form of government, as in a governing body. On a tribal scale, this may
> take the form of a council of elders. On a regional scale, it usually
> takes the form of who ever is the baddest group around imposing their
> will on those who cannot resist. With some notable exceptions, this has
> been the way of things for some time.
Of course. I'd have nothing less. Mankind has enough shit to handle
as is .. after feeding and clothing ourselves, taking care of any number
of diseases, or infections, watching out for large falling rocks from the
other end of the galaxy, and keeping a check on the damn insanity and
violence that erupts out of some of our very member's hearts ..
Yes, I would say that doing it ALL without any organizational structure,
i.e. government, would be asking just a TAD much.
We might need a particularly strong friend to lean on in our
close-nit little circle, maybe a council of elders in our tribe, or
hell -- even a damn Congress.
> Now for a universal scale, if we are all to be perfectly mature, some traits
> are going to have to be left aside. Right now, the expedient thing to
> get rid of is the desire to smoke cigarettes, write hacker code,
> (unless it's for the gubbmint), the desire to be skilled at arms,
> the desire to be an individual and such.
Maybe .. but then again, maybe not. When I was say, 6 or 7 years old
I had adults tell me to "grow up" or "be mature" .. and I couldn't
conceive of it. I couldn't conceive of watching their stupid movies,
eating their tasteless cardboard breakfast cereal or eating eggs without
ketchup. And I certainly wasn't going to get married. You see, I was a
kid.. and so I didn't think like an adult.
I'm a kid now. I can't conceive of infringing on an individual in the
above way.. and I hope, and like to try and insure, that humanity won't
take that road. I hope we grow up to be sophisticated handsome adults
who still like to have ketchup on their eggs and watch cartoons on
Saturday mornings.
I don't know how humanity is going to mature. I don't know whether
we are going to decide that freedom is ketchup and eggs or not.
> We people folks, have a way of trying to modify or pound our environment
> into our submission if possible. This is sorta known as the instinct to
> survive.
I agree. Sorta goes along with that whole evolution jazz. We're animals.
Only thing is.. are we getting further away from the apes, or closer?
And if we're getting further away is it for better or worse.
We are, as a species, getting better and better at bashing on our
environment. We're so good as a matter of fact, that within a century
we will have modified our own genetic code and began to control our
very evolution, and/or made entire virtual worlds to hang in inside
these damn little boxes. Not too shabby.
Survival can be very easy for modern man. Outside forces are controllable
enough to allow for increased life expectancy, which is always a bonus.
Science can help with the biology and physics. Governments can
occasionally help against assholes, so can fast, reliable, communications
systems and bunches of firearms.
> I think this is called, the Ends Justify the Means.
Good thing I don't believe that.
> I don't have any problem with your ideal, its a nice ideal, a fine ideal,
> it's the achieving of it that seems to be the sticky part.
That is certainly true.
Michael J. Graffam ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
"Let your life be a counter-friction to stop the machine."
Henry David Thoreau "Civil Disobedience"
