On 6/8/24 19:11, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/7/24 23:41, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/7/24 20:38, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/6/24 23:14, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/6/24 19:00, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
Hi Gene,
If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they
had a TV
transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a
mental checklist.
You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power
down / reduced
power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder
cables, hot
spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back
to a baseline
of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get
you out of this
"X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known
initial state.
Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on.
Wireless keyboard
doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does -
if it did, I'd
have brltty with every install on this laptop.
Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using
tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that
includes firmware - the unofficial one.
Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you
can. Then add your
Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there,
since we don't
run trinity.
Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all.
Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system
you want. Document it - write down
the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever
caused by
individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
apt rdepends brltty gives me:
me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
brltty
Reverse Depends:
Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
Suggests: orca
Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those
packages and
see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all
get out for you
but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember
where you got
to will be very helpful.
Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I
assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its
dependency's with it. Thanks Tom.
Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate
action from all others?
I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this
discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch
installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them,
though, "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome
dependency. And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation
of gnome ("apt install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested
package only and would not install it along with gnome; on the
stretch system, gnome installation makes no reference at all to
brltty.
While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and
rodent plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired
keyboard and no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the
pole that serves this house reach up and tap me by way of my
fingers on the keyboard. Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been
tapped a lot harder that that, hard enough to trigger a 6 month
round of shingles and the burns were months healing. And in this
case did not damage the keyboard or computer, but I did get the
message. I've had many strikes on that pole since I built a garage
on the end of the house, which caused me to install a 200 amp
service and bring my grounding specs up to NEC. Zero problems
since then (2008)
Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in
suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to
remove brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives
to know whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far
fetched if maybe barely possible.
Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and
"apt purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by
default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line
package management program since buster or earlier. I have never
had to install it. You probably should if it is missing.
apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends
<package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>;
the latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package
name, I think).
If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Regards,
Tom Dial
If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and
say "I got to
step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here"
and we'll
have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not
indluding
details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual
folk that
hang out here.
All the very best, as ever,
Andy Cater
How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are
proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other
irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for
me because the install insists on installing and configuring
orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now,
trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its
yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I
finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The
delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not
useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me
loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse
motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors. The first 23
installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you
nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever
waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the installer
AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through all
that again. Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because
it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the
suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it.
Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and
every dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing
either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet
all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't
fix, not broken'.
Hi Gene,
I, too, am not in need of the services that brltty or orca
provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time,
although I have not encountered any difficulties like you
describe.
On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
# apt-rdepends -r brltty
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
brltty
Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
brltty-espeak
brltty-flite
brltty-speechd
brltty-x11
If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to
remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any
installed packages other than the four listed above.
apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
# apt-rdepends -r orca
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
orca
Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
gnome
gnome-orca
orca-sops
So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is
unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find
the process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome
and orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a
settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the
"Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply"
button will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its
subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am
far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant
resources, however.
Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with
"ps -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough.
Or you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef
output) if it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to
not start orca in the first place,
I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Thank you Tom
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two
orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I
don't use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for
several minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC
which was being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite
voluminous:
gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
1560
The output of "which orca" would have told you the path to the orca
program you ran. The orca program (Python script) that Debian
installs with gnome is /usr/bin/orca.
With the orca that Debian installs along with gnome, typing "orca" in
a command line and hitting the <Enter> key starts orca in its working
mode. To get the GUI settings panel, you have to use "orca -s". See
the orca man page for setup details.
orca's normal run mode is in the background with no screen presence
So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes
dependencies will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove.
So one more time this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a
rear.
It appears you had more than one orca, different programs and for
different, unrelated purposes. Debian installed only one of them. The
other, hinted by the directory in which you ran the locate command,
presumably was installed by you, and may be part of an AppImage. Or
maybe it is the same orca, but installed with an appimage. I don't
use AppImage packages knowingly, and only use non-distribution
packages very sparingly, so have little to contribute on that subject.
I OTOH, have found AppImages a good way to get uptodate, and keep
uptodate, packages like OpenSCAD, FreeCAD and the miriad 3d slicers,
most of which do a new AppImage in the first week of the month. So the
OpenSCAD I'm running is nearly 4 years newer than the repo version,
and probably 20x faster.
You stated above that the "other" - non-Debian - orca was for 3D
printers you don't use. That suggests you could remove it without
interfering with anything.
It was an AppImage, rm-able.ff>
But you removed orca - the Debian-installed one - and just as apt (or
apt-get) said when you did it, it removed gnome. And the result was
unsatisfactory, as I said it probably would be in an earlier message
on this thread.
The obvious solution is remove the other - non-Debian - Orca, note
uppercase with whatever tools are appropriate to that. Then reinstall
gnome. As you said, that will reinstall orca as a dependency. But
once it is done, you can tune orca - the Debian one - to be less
obtrusive, or even silent, in the way I described earlier.
If, for reasons, you can't remove the non-Debian orca, it might not
even matter, since it silencing the Debian one is pretty easy
That I did not find easy. Disabling it also removes the ability to
reboot as the boot hangs forever waiting for orca to start, quite
early in the boot. That little detail is responsible for the first 23
re-installs.
I don't oppose appimage use, except on a sort of vague esthetic basis or
misplaced/unnecessary concern with resource use "efficiency." They
certainly have valid use cases.
At this point, I have no idea about the state of your system, so recommend:
Restore the system to the point where it has the software installed that
you want, plus gnome, plus the orca that came with gnome. Make sure
brltty is gone, since you don't want it.
apt purge brltty --yes
Reboot.
(Probably unnecessary, but it won't hurt and will ensure the system is
in a fairly normal state).
Log on to your account and disable orca speech:
orca -s &
In 5 - 10 seconds, the "Screen Reader Preferences" panel should be
displayed, with 8 tabs under the title. Left-click the "Speech" tab and
make sure the "Enable speech" box is unchecked. Then left-click the
"Apply" button at the bottom of the panel, and after that the "OK"
button. The preferences panel will close in a few seconds.
Orca should no longer read screens. And the change should be persistent
across logins and reboots: the settings are saved in your
~/.local/share/orca/ for later.
orca is gone, as is gnome. Apt and synaptic refuse to re-install gnome
w/o dragging in orca too. Good night, whats left of it, Tom.
You also could take care of orca for the current session by
killall orca
but it would not be persistent across logins.
Also see
https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/commands_speech_settings.html.en
On your system:
man orca
/usr/share/doc/orca/README
I won't say it's the best documentation I have seen, but it is
documentation, and better than some.
Regards,
Tom
.
Regards,
Tom Dial
Thanks Tom.
No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis