Thank you so much for bringing this up(again). I had originally only
subscribed to this mailing list to see if some bugs I had ran across in
3.32 were already known(to which no one replied but whatever) but I'm
glad because it only proves one of my points about Gnome shooting itself
in the foot by removing features that developers(and often by extension
users) use and relying on community made extensions to fix it.
I haven't read the prior discussions or even the series of emails in
this thread before but I have to ask: was this outcome really that
unexpected?
Not to put down Gnome 3 extension developers or anything since they've
clearly benefited Gnome 3 by allowing customization and features that
Gnome isn't willing to allow/add but uh, it is an objective fact that
Gnome extensions can cause performance, reliability, and usability
problems. Antergos installs by default a Gnome 3 extension to add
shutdown/lock buttons to the upper right menu for LightDM which
did(still does? I use GDM now. Don't know.) crash often resulting in no
way to lock/restart the system. Extensions, even when shipped by default
in a distribution, brake between versions. They can't be depended on.
Developers are reluctant enough to port applications to Linux. They see
Gnome 3, the most prominent Linux desktop environment, not support
something that their app needs and is supported on more popular and
profitable platforms like Windows and MacOS and they might just not
bother porting it over to Linux *especially* with no viable easy
alternatives. For the developers that were/are already on Linux, they
*clearly* don't care(why should they? Linux is only like 2% market
share) and their app is partially or fully broken on Gnome 3. Some
developers might (reasonably) even demand that users install one of the
Topicons extensions which makes Gnome 3 look bad because it both doesn't
support it by default and extensions aren't reliable(above).
So again, I'd like to ask: was this outcome really that unexpected? What
*was* expected to happen? I understand that there were technical reasons
for them being removed but not only was it extremely sudden at the
time(IIRC) there was no viable alternative. I remember asking a Gnome
developer on Reddit about it and the response was something along the
lines of "you should use the new notification system". What? How does
that offer the same or similar functionality as tray icons? Is it
possible to permanently display a "App <X> is hidden. Click here to
unhide." and get an event when the user clicks it? Even if it does, it
still doesn't provide the same functionality.
Please make the right decision and bring them back. I understand there
is some debate on where they should be located in the shell if they were
to return(among other things)... but personally I think the most
appropriate place would be in the top right in a drop down tray. My
arguments for putting it there are:
A) It follows other Gnome extension location/behavior such as "removable
drive menu"
B) It follows what Windows does which Gnome has used as a reference for
its application designs before
C) it would allow for multiple app icons without cluttering the top bar
like Topicons Plus does or any other part of the desktop
By default left clicking an app icon should bring the application to the
user's view while right clicking should open the app specific context
menu. Is that not possible currently? It seems like the middle scroll
wheel and right mouse buttons are hijacked to do a left mouse click. Is
that not possible to change?
While I'm here, I'd like to talk about the behavior and moderation of
the /r/gnome(and other places) subreddit mods and its users because
frankly it's a bit ridiculous.
Firstly(as linked in my article, direct link here:
https://archive.fo/KKR25) a developer/foundation member of Gnome
attacked a user for pointing out a fairly huge UX fail with Gnome
Photos(and any other app that uses tracker). I don't even use Gnome
Photos or related so I was a bit confused at first until I actually
opened Gnome Photos only to see dozens of images from an extracted Java
JRE in my downloads folder. It is absolutely a problem and for a Gnome
developer/foundation member to respond in such a way without at least
trying to understand the problem looks really bad on Gnome as a whole.
Secondly, there was this(https://archive.fo/Ng2IC) which was clearly in
response to my article(along with /r/linux posts). Not only do the
mods(/r/gnome) of in that Reddit thread allow trolling(which breaks the
rules which you can only see on mobile for some reason. Banning people
for rules that users that don't exist or can't see is /r/linux level
bad.) but also fail to correct many troll/inaccurate things said
throughout the thread, namely:
A) Calling "activities" the "overview". These are used interchangeably.
Search "overview" in Gnome Software and you will get extensions that
affect "activities" and call "activities" the "overview". While I made a
mistake and switched to overview it is still technically correct(or at
least no one can agree on what to call it).
B) Completely ignoring and/or mocking my positive comments on Gnome's UI
design. Yes, I'm aware it borrows heavily from MacOS(which I have never
really used extensively) but Gnome does not entirely copy/paste it from
any screenshots I can find on Google. It does go its own direction with
it(in a good way) by taking inspiration from multiple established OSs
like MacOS and Windows(proven by the app design pages that get released
for app redesigns). Just because Gnome 3's design is largely based on
MacOS doesn't mean it will end up as good or better than MacOS in the
end. It isn't always that easy. Both thought and effort are still
required and things can go wrong.
C) Mocking of my complaint that Numix with preferred dark theme turned
on has CSS compatibility issues. I had assumed that the issue was caused
by an issue with the applications itself since there were examples of
other applications have no such issue with similar layouts/designs.
Regardless, this is a bit comical considering multiple applications
under the Gnome umbrella either override the default Adwaita GTK theme
or have a "Night Mode" toggle(and don't respect global light or dark
mode as a result). The default blue Adwaita GTK theme highlighting color
is also bugged in Vivaldi and looks like garbage as a result but
ironically is fine on Numix. When enabling Adwaita-Dark from Gnome
Tweaks(comes by default now I guess), multiple programs have CSS
problems such as Thunderbird and in Netbeans. If you yourselves can't
ensure that all applications use the Adwaita theme correctly then don't
blame or mock users who think it's an application bug because it may
just very well be.
D) Users telling me to use KDE or some other desktop because I imagine
some basic level of customization built in a mainstream ready desktop
environment. There are many reasons I use Gnome 3 and not KDE or the
seemingly half dozen Gnome 2 lookalikes. I like Gnome 3 at its core but
don't like the lack of min/max buttons, hot corner, easy access to
removable media, rounded top bar corner among other minor things with
the default design(these are just personal preferences, there isn't
anything really wrong except for maybe min/max buttons and the top left
corner). None of those have anything to do with the core Gnome 3 design.
They are small UI tweaks and nothing more. It's all more minor things
that aren't worth piling on half a dozen extensions to fix nor causing
any compatibility problems(shouldn't anyway).
I could write an entire article on how much I dislike KDE alone but to
keep it simple: it looks and feels like someone tried making a (IMO
ugly) knockoff of Windows 10's DE and forgot to disable the extra
developer only customization settings. Its settings app is full of UI
design atrocities like list-views within list-views to narrow down to
the actual settings and some settings labels are EXTREMELY
misleading(Display and Monitor == compositor settings?!?!? Where do you
go for resolution and refresh rate?!?!?). The baloo file indexer ALWAYS
runs at startup for some reason even in Gnome making my computer
unusable for literally 5+ minutes on startup. There was a bug in Arch
KDE where resizing a window caused the buffer or w/e to reset resulting
UI glitching for awhile. There are *so* many problems with KDE I don't
even understand how/why people use or recommend it. If you like it,
great... but I don't. It isn't for me nor do I personally think it's
mainstream ready, even with all of its supposedly amazing customization
features. These are all areas IMO Gnome 3 does better.
As for the seemingly half dozen Gnome 2 lookalikes, they generally have
a dozen separate settings applications with maybe 8 settings in each
instead of maybe 1-2 applications(standard/advanced sort of like Gnome
Settings and Gnome Tweaks) for no real reason. I haven't used them much
so I can't say too much more on the core designs besides they aren't for me.
E) People not getting the point about extensions hurting both the user's
experience AND Gnome's reputation. This should be obvious even without
the whole Topicons thing. Distributions aren't labeling their customized
Gnome 3 as custom so people can and will assume that a customized Gnome
3 shell is *the* default Gnome 3 experience when it is in fact
not(Manjaro, Solus, and Antergos IIRC does this). Gnome should really
ask these distributions to specify if they are pre customized and ask to
offer an alternative default Gnome 3.
F) People bringing up that other OS(s) also have hot corners. I don't
know about other operating systems besides Windows and Android but I
recall strongly that people hated it in Windows too. While there are
gesture focused(somewhat-similar) launchers in Android, there are just
as many without.
G) People not reading before commenting and spreading FUD. This really
isn't particularly specific to this TBH.
etc. This is complete BS and I believe an apology in Gnome related
subreddits(/r/gnome, /r/fedora, and /r/linux) is required. You may
disagree with anything I have to say and engage with me in the comment
section if you want. Having a little fun and criticism is fine but
lying, brigading, trolling, etc is not and is against both *your* own
rules on /r/gnome and sitewide(well, brigading is anyway). I may
criticize Gnome and Linux a lot but I have never done this BS to anyone
nor will I ever.
I'd also just like to point out It's pretty rich people in the Linux
community call me a troll yet troll themselves. It's even richer for
moderators of subreddits to demand that users follow rules that they
themselves do not follow or enforce nor actually have listed on the
sidebar(/r/linux and /r/gnome). Stop it.
(I know I'm shadowbanned from /r/gnome btw.)
On 3/25/19 5:31 AM, Justin Joseph via desktop-devel-list wrote:
Thank you Jean and Neils.
Sorry for hijacking, I am not active here anymore and couldn't find
the option.
On Mon, 25 Mar, 2019, 3:54 PM Niels De Graef, <nielsdegr...@gmail.com
<mailto:nielsdegr...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hey Justin,
You can do so by going to the following link:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
At the bottom, you will find the appropriate button to unsubscribe.
Cheers,
nielsdg
On ma, Mar 25, 2019 at 11:18 AM, Justin Joseph via desktop-devel-list
<desktop-devel-list@gnome.org
<mailto:desktop-devel-list@gnome.org>> wrote:
> Sorry, how do I unsubscribe from this list? I can't find any option.
>
> On Mon, 25 Mar, 2019, 2:27 PM Allan Day via desktop-devel-list,
> <desktop-devel-list@gnome.org
<mailto:desktop-devel-list@gnome.org>> wrote:
>> Hey Britt,
>>
>> Britt Yazel <bwya...@gnome.org <mailto:bwya...@gnome.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I want to re-poen an old argument now that we have seen the
effects
>>> of removing the sys-tray/app-indicator tray for well over a year.
>>> In short, the users are not happy.
>>
>> As I recently wrote on GitLab [1], I'm open to re-evaluating this
>> from a design perspective. However, I think we'd need a different
>> implementation from GtkStatusIcon, and to my knowledge acceptable
>> alternative isn't available.
>>
>>> I believe our goals of putting pressure on application developers
>>> to ditch the antiquated app-indicator model fell mostly on
deaf ears
>>
>> The goal was never to force app developers to do anything, and
they
>> can include a status indicator if they want. It's just that it
won't
>> be shown by default. If you haven't seen it, I wrote a lengthy
>> account on my blog [2].
>>
>>> An example of this biting us in the arse is that with 3.32
TopIcons
>>> is causing the CPU usage to run through the roof, and people are
>>> blaming the Shell for the CPU usage, not the extension,
leaving our
>>> users with a bad taste in their mouths.
>>
>> Can we can do a better job at sign-posting which extension people
>> should use?
>>
>> Allan
>> --
>> [1]
>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/issues/1014#note_457856
>> [2] https://blogs.gnome.org/aday/2017/08/31/status-icons-and-gnome/
>> _______________________________________________
>> desktop-devel-list mailing list
>> desktop-devel-list@gnome.org <mailto:desktop-devel-list@gnome.org>
>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
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