> I would really like us to split out utilities into a common project +1 to the sentiment.
Would also advocate strongly for it being more tightly integrated with the base project than what we've been doing with our ecosystem (i.e. completely separate projects, not submodules), mostly from a discoverability and workflow standpoint. I'm definitely salty about having to have 4 IDE's / projects open just to work on the entire stack. On Thu, May 25, 2023, at 5:05 AM, Alex Petrov wrote: > This was not a talk, but rather an interactive workshop, unfortunately will > not work in a recorded way, but I am trying to work out ways to preserve this. > > On Thu, May 25, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Claude Warren, Jr via dev wrote: >> Since the talk was not accepted for Cassandra Summit, would it be possible >> to record it as a simple youtube video and publish it so that the detailed >> information about how to use Harry is not lost? >> >> On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 7:36 AM Alex Petrov <al...@coffeenco.de> wrote: >>> __ >>> While we are at it, we may also want to pull the in-jvm dtest API as a >>> submodule, and actually move some tests that are common between the >>> branches there. >>> >>> On Thu, May 25, 2023, at 6:03 AM, Caleb Rackliffe wrote: >>>> Isn’t the other reason Accord works well as a submodule that it has no >>>> dependencies on C* proper? Harry does at the moment, right? (Not that we >>>> couldn’t address that…just trying to think this through…) >>>> >>>>> On May 24, 2023, at 6:54 PM, Benedict <bened...@apache.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In this case Harry is a testing module - it’s not something we will >>>>> develop in tandem with C* releases, and we will want improvements to be >>>>> applied across all branches. >>>>> >>>>> So it seems a natural fit for submodules to me. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 24 May 2023, at 21:09, Caleb Rackliffe <calebrackli...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> > Submodules do have their own overhead and edge cases, so I am mostly >>>>>> > in favor of using for cases where the code must live outside of tree >>>>>> > (such as jvm-dtest that lives out of tree as all branches need the >>>>>> > same interfaces) >>>>>> >>>>>> Agreed. Basically where I've ended up on this topic. >>>>>> >>>>>> > We could go over some interesting examples such as testing 2i (SAI) >>>>>> >>>>>> +100 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, May 24, 2023 at 1:40 PM Alex Petrov <al...@coffeenco.de> wrote: >>>>>>> __ >>>>>>> > I'm about to need to harry test for the paging across tombstone work >>>>>>> > for https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-18424 (that's >>>>>>> > where my own overlapping fuzzing came in). In the process, I'll see >>>>>>> > if I can't distill something really simple along the lines of how >>>>>>> > React approaches it (https://react.dev/learn). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We can pick that up as an example, sure. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, May 24, 2023, at 4:53 PM, Josh McKenzie wrote: >>>>>>>>> I have submitted a proposal to Cassandra Summit for a 4-hour Harry >>>>>>>>> workshop, >>>>>>>> I'm about to need to harry test for the paging across tombstone work >>>>>>>> for https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-18424 (that's >>>>>>>> where my own overlapping fuzzing came in). In the process, I'll see if >>>>>>>> I can't distill something really simple along the lines of how React >>>>>>>> approaches it (https://react.dev/learn). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ideally we'd be able to get something together that's a high level "In >>>>>>>> the next 15 minutes, you will know and understand A-G and have access >>>>>>>> to N% of the power of harry" kind of offer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Honestly, there's a *lot* in our ecosystem where we could benefit from >>>>>>>> taking a page from their book in terms of onboarding and getting >>>>>>>> started IMO. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, May 24, 2023, at 10:31 AM, Alex Petrov wrote: >>>>>>>>> > I wonder if a mini-onboarding session would be good as a community >>>>>>>>> > session - go over Harry, how to run it, how to add a test? Would >>>>>>>>> > that be the right venue? I just would like to see how we can not >>>>>>>>> > only plug it in to regular CI but get everyone that wants to add a >>>>>>>>> > test be able to know how to get started with it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have submitted a proposal to Cassandra Summit for a 4-hour Harry >>>>>>>>> workshop, but unfortunately it got declined. Goes without saying, we >>>>>>>>> can still do it online, time and resources permitting. But again, I >>>>>>>>> do not think it should be barring us from making Harry a part of the >>>>>>>>> codebase, as it already is. In fact, we can be iterating on the >>>>>>>>> development quicker having it in-tree. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We could go over some interesting examples such as testing 2i (SAI), >>>>>>>>> modelling Group By tests, or testing repair. If there is enough >>>>>>>>> appetite and collaboration in the community, I will see if we can >>>>>>>>> pull something like that together. Input on _what_ you would like to >>>>>>>>> see / hear / tested is also appreciated. Harry was developed out of a >>>>>>>>> strong need for large-scale testing, which also has informed many of >>>>>>>>> its APIs, but we can make it easier to access for interactive testing >>>>>>>>> / unit tests. We have been doing a lot of that with Transactional >>>>>>>>> Metadata, too. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I'll hold off on this until Alex Petrov chimes in. @Alex -> got any >>>>>>>>> > thoughts here? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes, sorry for not responding on this thread earlier. I can not >>>>>>>>> understate how excited I am about this, and how important I think >>>>>>>>> this is. Time constraints are somehow hard to overcome, but I hope >>>>>>>>> the results brought by TCM will make it all worth it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 24, 2023, at 4:23 PM, Alex Petrov wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I think pulling Harry into the tree will make adoption easier for >>>>>>>>>> the folks. I have been a bit swamped with Transactional Metadata >>>>>>>>>> work, but I wanted to make some of the things we were using for >>>>>>>>>> testing TCM available outside of TCM branch. This includes a bunch >>>>>>>>>> of helper methods to perform operations on the clusters, data >>>>>>>>>> generation, and more useful stuff. Of course, the question always >>>>>>>>>> remains about how much time I want to spend porting it all to >>>>>>>>>> Gossip, but I think we can find a reasonable compromise. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would not set this improvement as a prerequisite to pulling Harry >>>>>>>>>> into the main branch, but rather interpret it as a commitment from >>>>>>>>>> myself to take community input and make it more approachable by the >>>>>>>>>> day. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 24, 2023, at 2:44 PM, Josh McKenzie wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> importantly it’s a million times better than the dtest-api process >>>>>>>>>>>> - which stymies development due to the friction. >>>>>>>>>>> This is my major concern. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What prompted this thread was harry being external to the core >>>>>>>>>>> codebase and the lack of adoption and usage of it having led to >>>>>>>>>>> atrophy of certain aspects of it, which then led to redundant >>>>>>>>>>> implementation of some fuzz testing and lost time. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We'd all be better served to have this closer to the main codebase >>>>>>>>>>> as a forcing function to smooth out the rough edges, integrate it, >>>>>>>>>>> and make it a collective artifact and first class citizen IMO. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I have similar opinions about the dtest-api. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 24, 2023, at 4:05 AM, Benedict wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It’s not without hiccups, and I’m sure we have more to learn. But >>>>>>>>>>>> it mostly just works, and importantly it’s a million times better >>>>>>>>>>>> than the dtest-api process - which stymies development due to the >>>>>>>>>>>> friction. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24 May 2023, at 08:39, Mick Semb Wever <m...@apache.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> WRT git submodules and CASSANDRA-18204, are we happy with how it >>>>>>>>>>>>> is working for accord ? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The time spent on getting that running has been a fair few hours, >>>>>>>>>>>>> where we could have cut many manual module releases in that time. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> David and folks working on accord ? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 23 May 2023 at 20:09, Josh McKenzie >>>>>>>>>>>>> <jmcken...@apache.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> __ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll hold off on this until Alex Petrov chimes in. @Alex -> got >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any thoughts here? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 16, 2023, at 5:17 PM, Jeremy Hanna wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think it would be great to onboard Harry more officially into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the project. However it would be nice to perhaps do some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sanity checking outside of Apple folks to see how approachable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is. That is, can someone take it and just run it with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current readme without any additional context? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if a mini-onboarding session would be good as a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community session - go over Harry, how to run it, how to add a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> test? Would that be the right venue? I just would like to see >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how we can not only plug it in to regular CI but get everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that wants to add a test be able to know how to get started >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeremy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 16, 2023, at 1:34 PM, Abe Ratnofsky <a...@aber.io> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just to make sure I'm understanding the details, this would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean apache/cassandra-harry maintains its status as a separate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> repository, apache/cassandra references it as a submodule, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clones and builds Harry locally, rather than pulling a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> released JAR. We can then reference Harry as a library without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maintaining public artifacts for it. Is that in line with what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're thinking? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I'd also like to see us get a Harry run integrated as part >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > of our pre-commit CI >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm a strong supporter of this, of course. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 16, 2023, at 11:03 AM, Josh McKenzie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <jmcken...@apache.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Similar to what we've done with accord in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-18204, I'd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like to discuss bringing cassandra-harry in-tree as a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> submodule. repo link: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/cassandra-harry >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Given the value it's brought to the project's stabilization >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> efforts and the movement of other things in the ecosystem to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being more integrated (accord, build-scripts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-18133), I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think having the testing framework better localized and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated would be a net benefit for adoption, awareness, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maintenance, and tighter workflows as we troubleshoot future >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> failures it surfaces. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd also like to see us get a Harry run integrated as part of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our pre-commit CI (a 5 minute simple soak test for instance) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and having that local in this fashion should make that a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cleaner integration as well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >
