Hello! I woke up today, with the first thing on my todo list: submit a ticket to create a design@ML account. (Sry Kxepal!)
But then, I did not expect all the responses :) It is a pleasant surprise for one of my proposal to generate so many emails. It means that the community is *active*, and that people are passionate and feel empowered enough to have an opinion to make it a better place. And good ideas are always welcome remember? I really like that everyone is welcome to voice their opinions and thoughts on the mailing list. No one is a mind reader. But reading gives us a secret power to reading thoughts. The mailing list gives me a searchable, and easy way to keep up with everything, it is nearly real-time, but can also work async, and it also gives people the chance to formulate their thoughts a bit better than IRC. I thought that a design@ML would be best for this, HOWEVER, now after reading the discussion, I have changed my mind, and now believe that that hosting design discussions for designers would be better on a platform like medium.com, or at least someplace where we can host screenshots of our ideas. That is a good idea! I am going to submit a proposal to do that instead of the mailing list idea. It will *SHOW* we are really trying to make the community a welcome place for designers, in their own language, without the overhead of a ML. Lets move our platform-for-design-for-CouchDB discussion stuff there. The other stuff: - You guys are arguing over what will make the CouchDB community better, the MOST. This is a bit silly, but makes me smile, and my heart swell with pride and happiness that everyone is on-board and trying making this better. - All of this is hard to do. - I think everyone is doing a good job. Michelle PS. ermouth: I am sorry Cloudant broke somethings of yours. We were trying to make things safer. We did not mean to intentionally break anything. > On Sep 14, 2015, at 9:22 AM, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other >> that we have the best of the project in mind > > If @kxepal says there is no activity in www@ – he is right. Facts are > stubborn things. If he predicts there will be no users in design@ with > current approach – he is right. > > I can‘t imagine @kxepal don‘t trust you, or Robert, or Michelle. Surely, he > trust. He just pointing out real problems, and this is absolutely ortogonal > to trust. > > Not everyone pointing out a problem can immidiately propose a solution. > Issue fixing starts from bug itself, not from patch. And I can‘t imagine, > how you can start bug report with ‘Yes, and...’. There is nothing barbarian > in ‘It won‘t work in this way’ or ‘But how about this?’. > >> That’s the kind of stuff that makes we very very tired participating here > > Sorry, but just repeating your own words: ‘If that makes you want to > unsubscribe, farewell’. Writing it not to prick you, but to point out, that > if you issue rules about friendliness, you better obey them by yourself > first. > >> [Alexnder Shorin] What really hurts conversations is false-positive > feedback, when you >> have to lie people and lie to yourself about foreign ideas. > > Absolutely. +1000. > > ermouth > > 2015-09-14 15:49 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: > >> >>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:42, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I’m suggesting a way how we can adopt a proven way >>>> If that makes you want to unsubscribe, farewell. >>> >>> That is exactly what I called iron ordnung. Extreme unfriendliness is >> only >>> allowed for your here, Jan. The one thing I fear now is that people are >>> afraid to say ‘but’, or take a contrarian position in general. How can we >>> avoid that? >> >> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, that we have >> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem disagreeing >> with each other. >> >> If you come at this is discussion from “if this happens, I’ll leave the >> project”, then you probably don’t trust me to make good suggestions about >> our culture. How can I improve that? >> >> >>> Without phrases ‘You don‘t like it? Farewell’, surely. >> >> I’m sorry for the harsh tone, but I’m also really fed up with lazy excuses >> of why we shouldn’t be a better community, and I especially called this out >> in my original message, and now we already have a number of messages on >> this thread that have nothing to do with the actual issue. That’s the kind >> of stuff that makes we very very tired participating here. >> >> Best >> Jan >> -- >> >> >> >> >>> >>> ermouth >>> >>> 2015-09-14 15:26 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: >>> >>>> Of course, this could have gone this way: >>>> >>>> “That’s an interesting approach, is there more literature on how and why >>>> this is supposed to work?” >>>> “Here’s a bunch of links: …” >>>> “Gotcha, the one thing I fear now is that people are afraid to say >> ‘but’, >>>> or take a contrarian position in general. How can we avoid that?” >>>> “I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, that we >> have >>>> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem disagreeing >>>> with each other.” >>>> >>>> But then again, that would be a sign of the method working… >>>> >>>> Best >>>> Jan >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:15, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well, next good step is to write it in CoC. Something like “Starting >> post >>>>> with ‘But’ is unwelcomed here’. You surely attract tons of contributors >>>>> with this. >>>>> >>>>> As for me the only desire after reading this is not to subscribe, but >> to >>>>> unsubscribe. Imposed iron ordnung is surely far more uncomfortable, >> then >>>>> posts, starting with ‘but‘. >>>>> >>>>> Also I see this policy just leave important questions undiscussed – >>>> nobody >>>>> dare to say ‘but’. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ermouth >>>>> >>>>> 2015-09-14 13:52 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 12:08, Alexander Shorin <kxe...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Jan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org> >> wrote: >>>>>>>> We agreed on a “Yes and…”-style of feedback, and it looks like that >> we >>>>>>>> are defaulting to a “But…”-style feedback. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Could you explain what are "Yes and..." and "But..." feedback styles >>>>>>> and how they are different? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sure, I had hoped that just mentioning this recalls our previous >>>>>> discussions. Here’s an example (sorry Michelle for picking on your >>>> example >>>>>> here, but it was freshest in my mind. In general, I don’t mean to >>>> re-play >>>>>> this as it happened on dev@, and I don’t want to single out anyone in >>>>>> particular, so I changed things a little): >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> “But…”-style: >>>>>> >>>>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.” >>>>>> >>>>>> “That’s a bad idea, we already have www@ and nobody uses that.” >>>>>> >>>>>> “…” >>>>>> >>>>>> <after a few of these, the person with the original suggestion leaves >>>> the >>>>>> project> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> “Yes, and…”-style: >>>>>> >>>>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.” >>>>>> >>>>>> “That’s an interesting idea: safe spaces are important! We still have >>>> the >>>>>> somewhat dormant (which is a different discussion) www@ mailing list >>>> for >>>>>> website stuff, have you considered repurposing this?” >>>>>> >>>>>> “Ah, good call, maybe that works, but I feel www@ isn’t as inviting a >>>>>> name as design@ is.” >>>>>> >>>>>> “I can understand that. If we go down that path, what would be even >> more >>>>>> inviting than a design@ mailing list? I can imagine that our mailing >>>> list >>>>>> system is not very approachable for designers to begin with, maybe we >>>>>> should look at a Discourse instance or a Slack channel?“ >>>>>> >>>>>> <fruitful conversation continues> >>>>>> >>>>>> * * * >>>>>> >>>>>> If your read this and thing “golly, ‘But…’-style is a lot more >>>> efficient, >>>>>> we don’t have a lot of people contributing in the first place, so >>>> cutting >>>>>> these discussions short is brilliant”, just know that our #1 purpose >> as >>>> a >>>>>> project must be to attract more contributors. Having more contributors >>>> is >>>>>> the #1 thing that makes sure CouchDB is a long-term success. It makes >>>> sure >>>>>> that individuals don’t burn out, it helps with more diverse ideas >> making >>>>>> the project better, it helps get us more stuff done overall. >> Long-term, >>>> it >>>>>> doesn’t matter if 2.0 is delayed by a couple of more weeks, but it >> does >>>>>> matter if the people who help shipping 2.0 leave the project right >>>> after, >>>>>> because it was such a burden to do that they lost interest or simply >>>> burned >>>>>> out. >>>>>> >>>>>> * * * >>>>>> >>>>>> Best >>>>>> Jan >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> ,,,^..^,,, >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: >>>>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: >>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: >> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ >> >>